Of course, it is possible, but with all situations where the cause is simple recessive to simple recessive, you would still expect to see the same percentages that Mendel worked out. Statistically, you would not expect to see entire litters affected. Myra
>From: Susan Cochran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat >Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 11:44:59 -0400 > >Oh no, it is very possible for entire litters to be affected by a recessive >defect. This is because the 25% probability is for EACH puppy in the litter >and not for the litter itself. For example, the probability for visual >chocolate in a breeding of two carriers is 12.5%, half the usual recessive >rate. Yet we have had litters that were 75% affected. > >There have been at least two litters where the mom was a wholecolor and the >dad a parti that resulted in 5 or more parti puppies and not a single >wholecolor although the probability for wholecolor was 50%. You can't >discount a recessive because the whole litter is affected. If mom and dad >are normal and you get an litter of defective puppies, look to both >environment and genetics. It could be either factor alone or both factors >working together. >All the best, >Susan Cochran > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 10:21 AM >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > If entire litters are affected, does it sound like a case of simple > > recessives to you? When entire litters are affected, we have to move >away > > from the simple recessive gene for our answer. Myra > > > > > > >From: Susan Cochran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 23:14:33 -0400 > > > > > >Myra, check with Suzanne Brown. She gave her litter to a vet school for > > >study. (The litter was severely affected) She can tell you which >school. >I > > >am sure that there is documentation on the condition there. I faintly > > >remember it as being the vet school in TN, but could be wrong. Also, > > >retrospective mating makes me lean toward recessive threshold as mode >of > > >inheritance. Sometimes you don't have to do a study with test mating, >you > > >just have to study ancestry to see the pattern. A genetic defect does >have > > >a > > >particular pattern of inheritance if you follow it through the >generations. > > >In addition, this defect has been experienced by more than one breeder >so > > >each home would have a different method of feeding and care. I have yet >to > > >see two breeders who have identical environments. > > >All the best, > > >Susan Cochran > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 8:13 PM > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but....coming from a medical background, anecdotal evidence >doesn't > > > > always impress me. I'm not saying that it isn't genetic, but I am > > >saying > > > > that until it is known for a certainty that it is....it probably >isn't > > >good > > > > to speculate. Myra > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Susan Cochran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 20:02:14 -0400 > > > > > > > > > >Myra, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that rough coat is >genetic. > > >It > > > > >appears to be making a comeback after relatively few occurances >for > > >many > > > > >years. That is what happens with a genetic recessive. For a while, > > >people > > > > >were breeding for other things, but now there has been a >concentrated > > > > >effort > > > > >to breed for longevity or hearts. When you do this, you increase >the > > >number > > > > >of carriers that are bred and you increase the number of carriers >in > > >the > > > > >population as well. Every dog has some "genetic junk", ever the >heart > > > > >clear > > > > >ones. The art of breeding is to match them up so the defective >genes > > >don't > > > > >match up and cause an affected puppy. > > > > > > > > > >The main idea is that breeders started going after the longevity >lines > > >and > > > > >this is a defect that is in some of them. Parrot mouth is in the > > >longevity > > > > >lines too, but the two defects are not linked. They can be >inherited > > > > >separately. > > > > >All the best, > > > > >Susan Cochran > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Myra Savant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 7:33 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but Cathy..... Where is the proof that it IS genetic? >Myra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Cathy J. Gish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 17:52:41 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sorry dear this is not environmental. It is genetic. And we >have >NO > > > > >proof > > > > > > >that > > > > > > >it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Where is that gardener.... Loved that little thing Rosanne sent >us > > > > >didn't > > > > > > >you..... Maybe have to rethink this gardener thing and hang out >at > > >the > > > > >fire > > > > > > >station. Nice dogs at the fire department. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >LOL > > > > > > >Cathy > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Myra Savant wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but we do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it >is > > > > >genetic. > > > > > > > > Think thalidomide here, Cathy. You're an RN, you've seen >these > > > > >things > > > > > > > > before that look chromosomal at first glance but then prove >to > > >be > > > > > > > > environmental. Myra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Cathy J. Gish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel List > > > > > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:58:36 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, it may be the tendency > > > > > > > > > > that is what is inherited and environment may play a >major > > >role > > > > >in > > > > > > > > > > manifestation of the defect. After all, the tendency for > > > > >alcoholism > > > > > > >is > > > > > > > > > > apparently inherited, but if the person never takes a >drink, > > > > >they'll > > > > > > > > >never > > > > > > > > > > develop the problem. > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > Susan Cochran > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >But a puppy is not drinking something that brings this on >it >is > > >a > > > > > > >visible, > > > > > > > > >genetic defect. Present and seen from birth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks > > > > > > > > >Cathy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Leanne Bertani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 1:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CKCS-L] Rough coat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know of at least three litters where only one puppy >in > > >an > > > > > > >otherwise > > > > > > > > > > normal > > > > > > > > > > > litter was affected. Those cases are unlikely to have > > >been > > > > > > > > >nutritional in > > > > > > > > > > > origin. I have also heard from breeders in England > > >(different > > > > > > >feeding > > > > > > > > > > > methods?) who have had the problem, sometimes whole > > >litters, > > > > > > >sometimes > > > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also know of two litters from the same dam >(different > > >sire) > > > > >with > > > > > > >one > > > > > > > > > > > affected puppy in each litter; the rest of the puppies >in > > >both > > > > > > >litters > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > > normal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > > > > > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send >the > > > > >email: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > > > > > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for > > >assistance. > > > > > > > > > > > Search the Archives... > > > > > > > > >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 2002 by >its > > > > >original > > > > > > > > >author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > > > > > > > > "Magic Commands": > > > > > > > > > > to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send >the > > > > >email: > > > > > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > > > > > > > to start it up gain click here: > > > > > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for >assistance. > > > > > > > > > > Search the Archives... > > > > > > >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 2002 by its > > >original > > > > > > >author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > >http://www.FlyingColorsCavaliers.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > > > > > > >"Magic Commands": > > > > > > > > >to stop receiving mail for awhile, click here and send the > > >email: > > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20NOMAIL > > > > > > > > >to start it up gain click here: > > > > > > > > > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?body=SET%20CKCS-L%20MAIL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for >assistance. > > > > > > > > >Search the Archives... > > > > >http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ckcs-l.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >All e-mail sent through CKCS-L is Copyright 2002 by its > > >original > > > > > > >author. > > > > > > > > > > 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