En relaci�n a Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!,
el 21 Aug 00, a las 19:57, leeenglock dijo:
>
> it is not for me to say if indonesia should be balkanised,
> it is a decision that should be made by the citizens of the
> country, and not when they are under brutal repression.
Ah, but you are dodging the issue here! Can you isolate Indonesia
away from its general position in the world system? Pressure from
that system is that every piece of Indonesia should break up due to
the simple reasons that Mac stated. In more senses than one (a short
list not exhaustive at all: through the investment system, the
financial system, cultural supremacy and penetration, technological
dependency, control of world market, and so on, not to speak of
direct bribery and mischievous intervention) the world system
is a CONSTITUTIVE PART of Indonesian politics, and the first task of
that politics is precisely to shrug off that intervention. In this
sense, your example of the USA is very appropiate, only that you
chose the wrong moment in the history of the USA:
>
> for example the usa was formed when they got fed up
> of the brits telling them what to do and taking the good
> bits for themselves---is this so different today for various
> countries which want to do the same?
In fact, the USA was formed IN THE WAY THEY CURRENTLY EXIST almost a
hundred years later, during the Civil War. And the Civil War was
fought over EXACTLY THE SAME ISSUES THAT ARE NOW AT STAKE IN
INDONESIA AND ELSEWHERE: the right for the affluent classes of a
section of the country to secede and go on benefitting from
privileged relationship with the foreign, imperial power, which
exerted itself through economic penetration in spite of political
independence. The slaveowners were both for keeping slavery working
and the nation divided. England -whose mills depended on American
cotton, that is on slavery, to work- was for "self determination" of
the South. But England in the 1860s seemed to be more revolutionary
than the USA today, because common English citizens (even though they
were mill workers) knew that it was their duty and it was in their
general interest to support the North, against the South, that is the
unificators against the secessionists.
In supporting Aceh, for example, why don't you ask yourself if you
are not taking the side of Jefferson Davis against that of Lincoln,
instead of asking if you are siding with Washington against the King?
Sukarno was, decades ago, Indonesia's Washington. He confronted the
foreign King, the King of the Netherlands. He even attempted to
confront the whole imperialist system when he tried to unify the
Malay world during the early 60s (this was one of the reasons why he
was toppled, by the way).
Why can't American citizens today see this that was so clear for the
British mill workers a hundred and a half of years ago, or still
better, what the Inca Yupanqui, representative for the Americans in
the Cortes de C�diz, said to the Spanish representatives who wanted
to bury the Old Regime while keeping the American possessions a
colony: "No people that oppresses another people can be free"?
But, since there does not seem to have existed a more widespread and
perfect system of national oppression than the one which today rules
the world, citizens of the First World are just suffering the worst
form of oppression: a management of their minds to the point that
even what they consider to be "good will" becomes a weapon in the
hands of the butchers of the planet...
Yes, maybe the Inca Yupanqui, in 1812, was thinking of them...
>
> it might also not be very realistic of any country short
> of russia or china to turn their guns on the usa. there is
> enough economic firepower to trash most countries if
> they really tried.
>
> if u read the conspiracy theorists it is said the usa
> allows gaddafi and his kind to stay in power as they
> serve a useful function for those really in charge--by
> brutal repression of their own people and raping their
> own country like suharto they thus serve the larger good
> of the people really running the world behind the scenes.
> some of the newsgroups have comments on this with the
> current effort by congress to support the murderous right wing
> generals in south and central american using billions of
> tax payer dollars. this ensures the oil continues to flow
> to their friends and the drugs are put in the right place.
> the cia themselves are said to have flooded los angeles
> with drugs.
>
> it is much easier do deal with one brutal general who
> has killed off lots of his own people than to have genuine
> democracy and many concerned citizens who will then start
> to practise real democracy.
>
> rgds
> leelock
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Macdonald Stainsby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!
>
>
> I am a bit nervous to speak for Nestor here, but allow me this much.
> There is no denial at all of the damage done to the citizens of Aceh,
> East Timor or Indonesia proper.
>
> What you are doing is saying that if one opposes killing citizens by
> the Indonesian generals, you must be interested in the break up of
> Indonesia *as a state*, neither an accurate statement nor an
> argument... simply just a statement of your preference.
>
> Now, in a world that the US/etc want to balkanize into a million
> pieces, the best defence of all the peoples in this archipelago is a
> state that is strong enough to turn the guns on the enemy- the
> imperialist states. Is this radical? that's your decision, but it is
> no less radical than proposing the Imperialist plan of making
> resistance impossible by giving them absolutely no state to organise
> in is the right move. I venture that if Aceh breaks off, it will
> certasinly not end there. We will end up with probably 6-10 Indonesias
> in the long run, should the Imperialists get their way.
>
> Macdonald
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "leeenglock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 9:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!
>
>
> > try telling the citizens of aceh about that--they have
> > been brutally repressed for decades, it is still going on.
> > they will benefit from not having villages destroyed,
> > husbands and sons dragged off in the middle of the night
> > never to come back, women raped by soldiers, etc.
> > does anyone have to be the bad guy when the common
> > people object and rise up against corrupt military
> > dictatorships?
> >
> > rgds
> > leelock
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 8:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!
> >
> >
> > En relaci�n a Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!,
> > el 19 Aug 00, a las 22:45, leeenglock dijo:
> >
> > >
> > > the northern part of indonesia is aceh and they also want to
> > > secede since they have had their own kings and sultans for many
> > > generations. indonesia is a modern construct after the second
> > > world war. there are many christians and hindus that would not
> > > want to be part of the javanese controlled country, and the
> > > leadership is fearful of this breakup.
> > >
> > > rgds
> > > leelock
> > >
> >
> > Truth is always concrete. Who can benefit from a breakup of
> > Indonesia?
> >
> >
> >
> > N�stor Miguel Gorojovsky
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
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>
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N�stor Miguel Gorojovsky
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