On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 08:10:18AM -0700, Razer wrote:
> On 09/17/2016 10:36 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 1:17 AM, Zenaan Harkness <z...@freedbms.net> wrote:
> >> usual activities of society, and not have to produce "papers please"
> > 
> > s/produce/obtain/
> > 
> > If one has no obligation to obtain, one cannot produce.
> > Most law forces one to obtain (permission) under threat of
> > paper duress, to partake in various civilities and liberties.
> > That's fucked.
> The law of the land is you have to identify yourself.

Our Crimes Act says verbally stating name and address is adequate.

> You don't have to produce papers unless you're operating a vehicle.
> Even then you don't have to produce, but you'll get a fixit ticket for
> not having it with you.

Failure to produce papers/ cards etc which prove identity, is grounds
enough to be "temporarily detained" whilst your corpus (body) is hauled
off to their police station in the back of their police vehicle, so they
can "endeavour to establish your identity".

Many cases, including my own, they don't drive you back to your vehicle.

> OTOH, things can be 'different you're POC, homeless or poor... For
> instance a homeless friend of mine was given a camping ticket last
> winter. In the process the officer asked for his ID.
> He informed the cop it was buried away for the night but he knew his
> *Identification Number*. The cop told him that wasn't good enough, to
> give him his *social security number*. My friend explained that was a
> violation of US federal law... The number is SPECIFICALLY forbidden from
> being used as general identification and it said so right on the card
> ... and the cop wouldn't want him to commit a federal crime, now would he?
> The cop then said something truly chilling that went something like this:
> > "Well if you don't I guess I'll just have to take you in for a
> > 'book-and-release. That means you won't see your sleeping bag and
> > other property for a few days."

That's what we get for allowing unaccountable, unfettered, and for most
of us, unstoppable power in the hands of a small percentage of the
population, in a sanctioned and badged group of employees of a
corporation (at least here in Aus the Police became a corporation some
years back), which due to the aforementioned, naturally attracts those
with small dick syndrome (or small ovary syndrome), aka bullies.

> This is the middle of the winter in a town where it can go to freezing
> in the early morning.
> My friend complied, under duress, and he wrote that on the ticket too. A
> ticket that never got filed.
> Postlogue: I did a check for my friend and found that if you don't have
> identification information for a non-jailable offense (ie. infractions
> in California) the solution is simple. A thumb-print on the ticket to
> simply prove you were there. Every cop has a print kit in their car.

I'd only say "a solution" rather than "the solution".

And "the solution" that we -should- have, is that verbally stating name
and address -ought- be enough, if you've damaged no property nor human
(and yourself doesn't count).

> My friend said he was going to sue for privacy violation but never did.
> It ain't easy being broke and houseless and trying to file a state level
> civil rights suit on your own.


> I suspect they wanted his social security
> number for a database of local homeless.

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