I would have thought also because Europe is more and more an open market to English companies that this will also be contributing to the drop in salaries.
I saw Hal Helms do a talk in the summer (wish it were still) and he stressed the importance of how you market yourself vis-à-vis what you can earn. If you say I am a programmer then you will be treated as one. Everyone on this list seems a lot more than that though and I think it is more your experience in the larger picture of the internet that is sellable. "Developer" has a more positive ring than programmer for a start. Another salary killer is all the CMS we build -- for a medium size company in the 90s I'd imagine a lot of money coming in would be from maintenance charges. CMS seriously reduces that income. I agree with Paulo about recruiting but it's difficult with most employers to get that hands-on with it. BTW, anyone freelancing down South at the moment?? I may have work going in the next 6 months... email me off list. My 2p ;) -----Original Message----- From: Paolo Piponi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 January 2004 09:56 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries I must agree with you and Alex completely. I only happen to do CF because that's what came by. My skills include Java, VB, Project Management, Data Modelling, Documenting and *Problem-Solving*. However, it's very difficult to get that across to employers. Personally, when I recruited I virtually ignored 'on-paper' experience and certainly ignored qualifications. I tried to get a gauge of their all-round skills and although I wasn't that good at it, I tried. Most interviewers haven't a clue and agencies have no idea at all. Unfortunately, anybody can do CF well enough for a bad application so that floods the market and pushes down salaries. I suppose it's the price paid for an accessible language - blame Mr. Allaire. Paolo > -----Original Message----- > From: Snake Hollywood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 10 January 2004 17:57 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > Well in my own experience, how many years you have under your > belt, how many > technologies you know, doesn't make you a good programmer. > I have seen apps done by programmers who are supposed to be > shithot at CF, > Java, SQL etc, and the cod ewas dreadful, no modularity, no > framework, no > code reuse etc. > > Someone ability to problem solve, learn on the job and write > proper modular, > reusable and well formatted/documented code would be my top priority. > Because if you can do that, the other skills should come > fairly easily if > you don't already have them. If I hired a developer and he > didn't know ASP > and I needed an ASP job done, I would at least know he would > do the job well > even if he didn't do the best code posisble as he was > learning as he went > along, so it would be easy to imporve on and update later on. > > This is one reaosn why I would tend to stay away from people > who say they do > fusebox, because I would have to assume they use it blindly and do not > really understand modular code and frameworks themselves. > This is evident from the number of customers we have who have > sites done in > fusebox, and don't know how to debug it. When something > doesn't work they > blame us (the host) and say somehting is wrong our end, and > we have to go > and debug their fusebox code to prove the problem is their end. > > Russ Michaels > Macromedia/Allaire Certified ColdFusion Developer > > CFMX Hosting > Phone: 0845 456 3487 > Tech Support: 0906 9607800 > FAX: 0709 2212 636 > WEB: cfmxhosting.co.uk > > >Please use the support helpdesk on our web site to submit > support tickets.< > > Join our ColdFusion Developer discussion lists. > Send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Duncan Fenton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: 10 January 2004 16:19 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > > > > I believe the agencies are having to compete very hard. One > way is in > > (so-called) 'quality' of candidates presented. This is where > > the 'years & buzzwords' game creeps in, because they don't > > have time for (and the clients would not understand) a proper > > evaluation (either psychometric or practical). > > > > IMHO the real problem is that in many corporates the > > 'procurement mafia' have captured the personnel contracting > > area and the people with actual responsibility (PM's) can no > > longer choose their agencies. Procurement people are good at > > managing money, but usually piss-poor at managing risk > > (except of course for their own backsides). Most can only > > work with a 'commodity' model as opposed to a 'talent' one. > > Which is where we came in. > > > > My 2p, YMMV. > > Duncan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alex Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: 09 January 2004 21:48 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > > > > Hmmm, > > > > I think that years experience doesn't actually count for > > much, this isnt like being a solictor where its all about > > experience, the technology changes all the time, but > > recruitment agencies especially have this real hang up. I > > remember not getting a contract because although a certified > > cf instructor I hadn't put down fusebox on my application, > > and hadnt been using CF for 6 years (at the time) I mean come on ! > > > > I think for me breadth of experience is more important. Id > > rather hire a true programmer who'd been using CF for one > > year than say an html guy who had actually been using CF and > > ASP for 3 years but had no real CS or programming background. > > So I think years isn't really a good way of hiring but people > > evidently do focus on this. > > > > Also for me CF is very much only part of the story, knowledge > > of Oracle or SQL Server coding, XML and Java would be more > > important to me. > > > > Plus if the programmer had a clue about design patterns, > > architecture and could deal with client interaction that > > plays a big part of a salary decision. > > > > Therefore I think years is pretty irrelevant. > > > > Saying that I reckon a good 3-4 year CF developer (though I > > consider java with CFMX to be important) plus all the other > > stuff should be 35-40k ish. That's just what Id expect. But > > for more middle weight developers with maybe intermediate > > SQL, CF, HTML, Javascript, maybe a bit of java but certainly > > no architect, 25K > > > > My 2p > > > > Alex > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/2003 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- > ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
