without exception, the standards of CF programmers that cam to me for interview were appalling to say the least. I myself am not as advanced as many of the people on this list having only recently passed my CFMX developers exam (just missed out on the advanced level) but most of the programmers coming through were PHP and ASP programmers who claimed to know CF.
perhaps it is the flood of ASPers and PHPers that claim to know CF that is bringing down the perceptions on recruiters (especially those who dont really understand what CF is and how it can be utilised). ASP and PHP programmers are after 10 a penny these days. They are being taught ASP at University and even in some High Schools and PHP modules are given away by the thousands so PHPers dont have to understand basic programming concepts (plug and play programming).
What does everyone else think?
Ellis C Wood BSC Ellwood Web Solutions
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:38:20 -0000, Damian Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would have thought also because Europe is more and more an open market to English companies that this will also be contributing to the drop in salaries.
I saw Hal Helms do a talk in the summer (wish it were still) and he stressed the importance of how you market yourself vis-�-vis what you can earn. If you say I am a programmer then you will be treated as one. Everyone on this list seems a lot more than that though and I think it is more your experience in the larger picture of the internet that is sellable. "Developer" has a more positive ring than programmer for a start.
Another salary killer is all the CMS we build -- for a medium size company in the 90s I'd imagine a lot of money coming in would be from maintenance charges. CMS seriously reduces that income.
I agree with Paulo about recruiting but it's difficult with most employers to get that hands-on with it. BTW, anyone freelancing down South at the moment?? I may have work going in the next 6 months... email me off list.
My 2p ;)
-----Original Message----- From: Paolo Piponi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 January 2004 09:56 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries
I must agree with you and Alex completely. I only happen to do CF because that's what came by. My skills include Java, VB, Project Management, Data Modelling, Documenting and *Problem-Solving*. However, it's very difficult to get that across to employers.
Personally, when I recruited I virtually ignored 'on-paper' experience and certainly ignored qualifications. I tried to get a gauge of their all-round skills and although I wasn't that good at it, I tried. Most interviewers haven't a clue and agencies have no idea at all.
Unfortunately, anybody can do CF well enough for a bad application so that floods the market and pushes down salaries. I suppose it's the price paid for an accessible language - blame Mr. Allaire.
Paolo
http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/-----Original Message----- From: Snake Hollywood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2004 17:57 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries
Well in my own experience, how many years you have under your belt, how many technologies you know, doesn't make you a good programmer. I have seen apps done by programmers who are supposed to be shithot at CF, Java, SQL etc, and the cod ewas dreadful, no modularity, no framework, no code reuse etc.
Someone ability to problem solve, learn on the job and write proper modular, reusable and well formatted/documented code would be my top priority. Because if you can do that, the other skills should come fairly easily if you don't already have them. If I hired a developer and he didn't know ASP and I needed an ASP job done, I would at least know he would do the job well even if he didn't do the best code posisble as he was learning as he went along, so it would be easy to imporve on and update later on.
This is one reaosn why I would tend to stay away from people who say they do fusebox, because I would have to assume they use it blindly and do not really understand modular code and frameworks themselves. This is evident from the number of customers we have who have sites done in fusebox, and don't know how to debug it. When something doesn't work they blame us (the host) and say somehting is wrong our end, and we have to go and debug their fusebox code to prove the problem is their end.
Russ Michaels Macromedia/Allaire Certified ColdFusion Developer
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Duncan Fenton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 10 January 2004 16:19 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > I believe the agencies are having to compete very hard. One way is in > (so-called) 'quality' of candidates presented. This is where > the 'years & buzzwords' game creeps in, because they don't > have time for (and the clients would not understand) a proper > evaluation (either psychometric or practical). > > IMHO the real problem is that in many corporates the > 'procurement mafia' have captured the personnel contracting > area and the people with actual responsibility (PM's) can no > longer choose their agencies. Procurement people are good at > managing money, but usually piss-poor at managing risk > (except of course for their own backsides). Most can only > work with a 'commodity' model as opposed to a 'talent' one. > Which is where we came in. > > My 2p, YMMV. > Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 09 January 2004 21:48 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > Hmmm, > > I think that years experience doesn't actually count for > much, this isnt like being a solictor where its all about > experience, the technology changes all the time, but > recruitment agencies especially have this real hang up. I > remember not getting a contract because although a certified > cf instructor I hadn't put down fusebox on my application, > and hadnt been using CF for 6 years (at the time) I mean come on ! > > I think for me breadth of experience is more important. Id > rather hire a true programmer who'd been using CF for one > year than say an html guy who had actually been using CF and > ASP for 3 years but had no real CS or programming background. > So I think years isn't really a good way of hiring but people > evidently do focus on this. > > Also for me CF is very much only part of the story, knowledge > of Oracle or SQL Server coding, XML and Java would be more > important to me. > > Plus if the programmer had a clue about design patterns, > architecture and could deal with client interaction that > plays a big part of a salary decision. > > Therefore I think years is pretty irrelevant. > > Saying that I reckon a good 3-4 year CF developer (though I > consider java with CFMX to be important) plus all the other > stuff should be 35-40k ish. That's just what Id expect. But > for more middle weight developers with maybe intermediate > SQL, CF, HTML, Javascript, maybe a bit of java but certainly > no architect, 25K > > My 2p > > Alex > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/2003 > > > > > -- > ** Archive:
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