Another slightly worrying thought- we're still more or less at the beginning of this whole computer revolution thing. If we take our position as analogous to building work, we are the brickies (in the eyes of the people with the purse strings)- and that's the way salaries are heading. However, we are often simultaneously the architects and engineers. This is what we need to get recognized and perhaps talk about more often -- how about a topic for CFUG???
-----Original Message----- From: Paolo Piponi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 January 2004 13:28 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries I think you've hit the nail on the head, Damian. 1) Too many webmonkeys: Even the most skillful developers have to admit that a significant element of our work is monkey work, unless you have a great team and are an astute delegator (in which case you won't be on this list and you won't be complaining). Because a lot of our work is easy, it pushes down prices. Take writing novels. Anyone can write, but few can write well. However, those that write well have to prove themselves first so author earnings are usually appalling. 2) Content Management Systems: Those of us who are skilled don't like monkey work so we build systems to automate the monkey work. If I ever lose my current job it will be because I did myself out of it. There's still monkey work, but most of the monkey work was reduced by a decent CMS. I used to manage a team of 11. After we all built the CMS, I am now the last of the developers. 3) Marketing, marketing, marketing: We must forget that we are programmers, even developers and certainly not project managers (what to they do anyway :-\), but what are we? I take it most on this list who contribute are people who can do just about anything provided we have a CPU and a text editor. But selling that skill? It's really only something you can prove on the job and perhaps get head-hunted by a client. The bottom line, I suppose, is its hard-work like most industries. Because our work involves sitting on our ar5e5 means we have to try harder to demonstrate that isn't all we are. Paolo > -----Original Message----- > From: Damian Watson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 12 January 2004 12:38 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > I would have thought also because Europe is more and more an > open market > to English companies that this will also be contributing to > the drop in > salaries. > > I saw Hal Helms do a talk in the summer (wish it were still) and he > stressed the importance of how you market yourself vis-à-vis what you > can earn. If you say I am a programmer then you will be > treated as one. > Everyone on this list seems a lot more than that though and I think it > is more your experience in the larger picture of the internet that is > sellable. "Developer" has a more positive ring than programmer for a > start. > > Another salary killer is all the CMS we build -- for a medium size > company in the 90s I'd imagine a lot of money coming in would be from > maintenance charges. CMS seriously reduces that income. > > I agree with Paulo about recruiting but it's difficult with most > employers to get that hands-on with it. BTW, anyone freelancing down > South at the moment?? I may have work going in the next 6 months... > email me off list. > > My 2p ;) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paolo Piponi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 12 January 2004 09:56 > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > I must agree with you and Alex completely. I only happen to do CF > because > that's what came by. My skills include Java, VB, Project Management, > Data > Modelling, Documenting and *Problem-Solving*. However, it's very > difficult > to get that across to employers. > > Personally, when I recruited I virtually ignored 'on-paper' experience > and > certainly ignored qualifications. I tried to get a gauge of their > all-round > skills and although I wasn't that good at it, I tried. Most > interviewers > haven't a clue and agencies have no idea at all. > > Unfortunately, anybody can do CF well enough for a bad application so > that > floods the market and pushes down salaries. I suppose it's the price > paid > for an accessible language - blame Mr. Allaire. > > Paolo > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Snake Hollywood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: 10 January 2004 17:57 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > > > > Well in my own experience, how many years you have under your > > belt, how many > > technologies you know, doesn't make you a good programmer. > > I have seen apps done by programmers who are supposed to be > > shithot at CF, > > Java, SQL etc, and the cod ewas dreadful, no modularity, no > > framework, no > > code reuse etc. > > > > Someone ability to problem solve, learn on the job and write > > proper modular, > > reusable and well formatted/documented code would be my top > priority. > > Because if you can do that, the other skills should come > > fairly easily if > > you don't already have them. If I hired a developer and he > > didn't know ASP > > and I needed an ASP job done, I would at least know he would > > do the job well > > even if he didn't do the best code posisble as he was > > learning as he went > > along, so it would be easy to imporve on and update later on. > > > > This is one reaosn why I would tend to stay away from people > > who say they do > > fusebox, because I would have to assume they use it blindly > and do not > > really understand modular code and frameworks themselves. > > This is evident from the number of customers we have who have > > sites done in > > fusebox, and don't know how to debug it. When something > > doesn't work they > > blame us (the host) and say somehting is wrong our end, and > > we have to go > > and debug their fusebox code to prove the problem is their end. > > > > Russ Michaels > > Macromedia/Allaire Certified ColdFusion Developer > > > > CFMX Hosting > > Phone: 0845 456 3487 > > Tech Support: 0906 9607800 > > FAX: 0709 2212 636 > > WEB: cfmxhosting.co.uk > > > > >Please use the support helpdesk on our web site to submit > > support tickets.< > > > > Join our ColdFusion Developer discussion lists. > > Send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Duncan Fenton > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: 10 January 2004 16:19 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > > > > > > > I believe the agencies are having to compete very hard. One > > way is in > > > (so-called) 'quality' of candidates presented. This is where > > > the 'years & buzzwords' game creeps in, because they don't > > > have time for (and the clients would not understand) a proper > > > evaluation (either psychometric or practical). > > > > > > IMHO the real problem is that in many corporates the > > > 'procurement mafia' have captured the personnel contracting > > > area and the people with actual responsibility (PM's) can no > > > longer choose their agencies. Procurement people are good at > > > managing money, but usually piss-poor at managing risk > > > (except of course for their own backsides). Most can only > > > work with a 'commodity' model as opposed to a 'talent' one. > > > Which is where we came in. > > > > > > My 2p, YMMV. > > > Duncan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Alex Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: 09 January 2004 21:48 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [ cf-dev ] CF Salaries > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, > > > > > > I think that years experience doesn't actually count for > > > much, this isnt like being a solictor where its all about > > > experience, the technology changes all the time, but > > > recruitment agencies especially have this real hang up. I > > > remember not getting a contract because although a certified > > > cf instructor I hadn't put down fusebox on my application, > > > and hadnt been using CF for 6 years (at the time) I mean come on ! > > > > > > I think for me breadth of experience is more important. Id > > > rather hire a true programmer who'd been using CF for one > > > year than say an html guy who had actually been using CF and > > > ASP for 3 years but had no real CS or programming background. > > > So I think years isn't really a good way of hiring but people > > > evidently do focus on this. > > > > > > Also for me CF is very much only part of the story, knowledge > > > of Oracle or SQL Server coding, XML and Java would be more > > > important to me. > > > > > > Plus if the programmer had a clue about design patterns, > > > architecture and could deal with client interaction that > > > plays a big part of a salary decision. > > > > > > Therefore I think years is pretty irrelevant. > > > > > > Saying that I reckon a good 3-4 year CF developer (though I > > > consider java with CFMX to be important) plus all the other > > > stuff should be 35-40k ish. That's just what Id expect. But > > > for more middle weight developers with maybe intermediate > > > SQL, CF, HTML, Javascript, maybe a bit of java but certainly > > > no architect, 25K > > > > > > My 2p > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ** Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > -- > > ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev%40lists.cfdeveloper.co.uk/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For human help, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
