I left a comment--main point: I don't think we should be doing these one-by-one. This needs to be a batch effort. Otherwise icons will not end up looking consistent, and reviewing them will take as much time as drawing them.
-- Eirik -----Original Message----- From: Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 11:32 AM To: dev <dev@netbeans.apache.org> Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG Hello Eirik, since Saturday I was talking my son into redrawing some icons. Today he managed to convert two simple ones with InkScape. Let's try the classical PR review process on his icons: https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/2376 -jt st 16. 9. 2020 v 19:16 odesílatel Eirik Bakke <eba...@ultorg.com> napsal: > > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the > > code > base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics. > > The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort, > each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be > 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. > But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of > mostly repetitive work. > > -- Eirik > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthias Bläsing <mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu> > Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org > Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG > > Hi, > > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code > base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics. > > I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones > using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be > done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't > grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other > OSes could be color calibrated. > > I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to > work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good > enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other > contributors. > > I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it > would be great if other people say what they think. > > Greetings > > Matthias > > Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke: > > Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's > > enthusiastic support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to > > having 4-5 committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the > > future. It's worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though. > > > > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do > > > a crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans? > > > > Main differences: > > * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, > > ideally a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. > > While I'm sure we have several people here who could do a good job > > with 20-30 icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them. > > * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the > > designer, "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. > > Here are 20 examples that we have already converted. You get paid > > when you have finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If > > the project is a success, we might later try to raise funds to hire > > you to convert another 700 icons." > > > > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't > > > scale > > On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale, > > due to the sheer number of icons involved. > > > > > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is > > > not merged? > > We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a > > success, we can raise more funds for additional icons. > > > > > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work > > > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights? > > > > Here's how I imagine this would work: > > 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a > > GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to > > retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced > > under the Apache License". > > 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork, > > recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work. > > 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the > > organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe > > solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the > > Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they > > actually get merged into NetBeans. > > 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually > > look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this > > vote passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into > > NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned. > > 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using > > the same designer. > > > > > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does > > > not match? > > Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source. > > Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional, > > rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would > > be "arms length", and no one should feel cheated. > > > > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to > > > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged. > > Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is > > discussed here first and people actually like the approach. > > > > -- Eirik > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matthias Bläsing <mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org > > Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG > > > > Hi, > > > > yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case: > > > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a > > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans? > > > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't > > scale > > - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is > > not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as > > the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain > > rights? > > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not > > match? > > > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to > > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged. > > > > Greetings > > > > Matthias > > > > > > > > Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke: > > > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the > > > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional > > > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. > > > > > > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], > > > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps > > > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this > > > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons > > > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it > > > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover > > > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success. > > > > > > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a > > > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons > > > in Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS- > > > 2617. > > > I'm swamped until February 2021, though... > > > > > > Some issues to consider: > > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. > > > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs. > > > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred > > > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible > > > with a volunteer effort. > > > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a > > > hodgepodge of different icon styles. > > > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this > > > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so > > > aesthetics is actually a primary concern. > > > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing > > > work in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) > > > before I was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If > > > multiple people are working on the icons, each person will have to > > > go through this learning curve. > > > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different > > > icons. > > > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up > > > redrawing shapes that others have already drawn. > > > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong > > > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of > > > familiarity with the drawing software is needed. > > > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will > > > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and > > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For > > > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much > > > time as drawing the icon itself. > > > > > > -- Eirik > > > [1] See > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Reti > > > na > > > %2 > > > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png > > > [2] > > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized. > > > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM > > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org > > > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG > > > > > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik. > > > > > > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons]( > > > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/ > > > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff- > > > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd) > > > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying > > > around? > > > > > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported > > > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? > > > Were > > > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons > > > converted? > > > > > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community > > > like Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the > > > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"? > > > > > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout > > > per cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people > > > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, > > > right? > > > > > > -jt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > >
