Hi, I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics.
I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color calibrated. I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors. I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would be great if other people say what they think. Greetings Matthias Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke: > Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's > enthusiastic support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to > having 4-5 committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the > future. It's worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, > though. > > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a > > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans? > > Main differences: > * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally > a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm > sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30 > icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them. > * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer, > "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20 > examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have > finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a > success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert > another 700 icons." > > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't > > scale > On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale, > due to the sheer number of icons involved. > > > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is > > not merged? > We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a > success, we can raise more funds for additional icons. > > > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work > > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights? > > Here's how I imagine this would work: > 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a > GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to > retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced > under the Apache License". > 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork, > recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work. > 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the > organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe > solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the > Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they > actually get merged into NetBeans. > 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually > look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this > vote passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into > NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned. > 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using > the same designer. > > > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does > > not match? > Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source. > Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional, > rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be > "arms length", and no one should feel cheated. > > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to > > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged. > Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is > discussed here first and people actually like the approach. > > -- Eirik > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthias Bläsing <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG > > Hi, > > yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case: > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans? > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't > scale > - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is > not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as > the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain > rights? > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not > match? > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged. > > Greetings > > Matthias > > > > Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke: > > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the > > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional > > icon > > designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. > > > > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], > > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps > > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this > > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons > > that > > should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it who > > could > > later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover most of > > the > > remaining interface, if the first project is a success. > > > > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a > > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons > > in > > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS- > > 2617. > > I'm swamped until February 2021, though... > > > > Some issues to consider: > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. > > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs. > > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred > > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible > > with a > > volunteer effort. > > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a > > hodgepodge > > of different icon styles. > > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this > > case, > > the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so > > aesthetics > > is actually a primary concern. > > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing > > work > > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I > > was > > fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people > > are > > working on the icons, each person will have to go through this > > learning curve. > > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different > > icons. > > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up > > redrawing > > shapes that others have already drawn. > > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong > > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of > > familiarity with the drawing software is needed. > > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will > > still > > end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and cleaning > > them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For the > > simpler > > icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time as drawing > > the > > icon itself. > > > > -- Eirik > > [1] See > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%2 > > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png > > [2] > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized.ht > > ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jaroslav Tulach <[email protected]> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG > > > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik. > > > > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons]( > > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/ > > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff- > > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd) > > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying > > around? > > > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported > > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? > > Were > > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons > > converted? > > > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community > > like > > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the > > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"? > > > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout > > per > > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people > > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, > > right? > > > > -jt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
