I am sure that collaboration is important. I am equally sure that divergent points of view are important. There may be a tendency for those with old ideas not to like new ideas presented and they may want to put the old ideas in the middle of new ideas. That is not collaboration. This is especially so when the old ideas not only have been presented elsewhere but in fact have been ensconced in the Struts framework itself.
I don't see the systematic presentation of an idea as a "problem". I don't understand why someone wants to put their ideas in the middle of presentation of an idea. Why not at the end, or in another wiki page? Is there no place for a long systematic treatment of an alternative idea on the Struts wiki?
This particular page is not for Struts newbies. If someone else wants to do a page for them, I would encourage that. I don't want to change this page for that purpose. This page, in fact, is likely to become more, not less, recondite. I am talking to developers more than to users here. And, more to advanced users than newbies.
Everything everyone wants does not need to be on this page. Try using another page. The only difficulty here is that two people with very divergent views in this area have been trying to write in the same space. I have tried to manage this by giving a space at the end. The real alternative that makes sense would be for people who are not collaborating not to speak at the same time in the same place. The divergence is good, but it must be managed.
Part of the difficulty, Matt, is that you don't know where I am going on this page. I might have been there already, but I have had to keep changing the page. I have a lot more that is going on this page. I have a very detailed button solution. Isn't there a place we can put detailed solutions rather than one, two or three liners?
If someone wants to do the things you mention with DispatchAction, why do it here? This wiki page is about a different solution. Why do all the people who want to maintain the status quo need to have a say in the middle of the presentation of an alternative idea? I don't see that as a good policy. Alternative views ought to be heard too.
Your solution essentially will make a nice little article on what everyone wants to do. That is not my objective. I am trying to put together a generic button solution which has a particular tilt. I am not trying to lecture on the history of the problem and its vissisitudes but to present a new series of ideas. Can I do that here? So far I have been stymied twice by people who have no idea what I am trying to do putting their ideas in the middle of my presentation.
I merely ask why they cannot put in their two cents at the end or put up their own wiki page with their concerns? If that is not possible, then I don't see how alternative points of view can be protected from those who want to flood the middle of a presentation with their own ideas. What value is their in making a presentation unreadable by putting in your alternative and disconsonant ideas in the middle of a presentation?
I don't want to even try to seek the solution you offer, Matt. It may be a good solution, but it ends up doing something I am not trying to do. I am not trying to present Niall's ideas. I am trying to present mine. My idea are very involved and this wiki page will evolve as I get things presented better. I cannot do so, however, if I have to continually salve the needs of those who want their ideas presented in this space.
Michael McGrady
Matt Bathje wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?) going to.
As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall made his changes.
Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1 person has chosen as acceptable.
Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird table of contents, use the wiki format. Have "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short description of the solution by its link.
Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. In the comments section of the main page, people can express their views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try other solutions.
Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most of the problems we are seeing.
Matt
Michael McGrady wrote:
The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly trying to critique and to surpass.
I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal attacks thing more than I have.
I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But, you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a different approach on this and are not likely to see things the same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of new approaches.
You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me do that in peace?
Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That is the difficulty.
I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, or the wiki will be nuked.
Michael McGrady
Niall Pemberton wrote:
OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
I respected what you requested in the "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
page and all I did was add two links which were related to the subject - I
added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested people should
do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should have put
them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and you also
put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you making
reference to me so last night I went through removing all those references.
If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I would
have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem to want
your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if thats the
case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a link to
it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include any
reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal attacks on
me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why do you say
"without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
unecessary and rude.
Niall
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, despite being
detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing that
because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
effectively confuses the issue.
I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not do that.
You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques of the
links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places where
they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's status
and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is no way
to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it altogether
and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his whim and
without much knowledge of this area.
Michael McGrady
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