Michael,

The short answer to people "messing with your format" is to publish your
ideas/comments on your own web site. Then you could add a link from the Wiki
if you wish.

I encourage you to do so, or accept the fact that a Wiki page is a communal
resource.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McGrady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 24, 2004 10:51 AM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help


Thanks for this response, Matt.  I understand your thinking.  However,
the difficulty is that you don't know where I am going with this.  No
way you could, of course, but where I am going does not fit in with
these ideas.

If people don't know about DispatchAction, etc., they are not the people
I am trying to talk to at the moment.  I am talking about jet cars and
don't want to include the model-T in my presentation.  If others want to
remind us of the model-T, which has had its day in the Sun, they can do
so at the end or elsewhere.  What is the difficulty with that?  The only
difficulty is that I cannot keep people out of the middle of the page
and because I have a more generic solution than you know about coming up
I want to be able to slowly build that.

Let me suggest, Matt, that you start a new page called something like
"The Known Solutions to Buttons" and you can reference this page?  I
don't want to do that page.  I want to do something different.  You
probably don't want to do that page either.  If you do, however, it is
not what I am doing here.  I like your idea.  I would encourage it. That
is not what I am doing.  Can I do what I am doing?  I have added a bit
more to the start of the wiki to give you an idea.  You might look at
the <crackwillow:image> note.

Michael McGrady

Matt Bathje wrote:

> I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
> it is easier for me.
>
> I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
> But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
> detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
> compare/contrast.
>
> Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
> mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
> without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
> old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
> their opinions of all of them.
>
> A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
> Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
> problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
> possible/known solutions defined in one place.
>
> I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
> solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
> you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
> that is how you have formatted the page.
>
> A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
> collaboration.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Michael McGrady wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
>> are new solutions.  The other solutions that people are trying to put
>> into this page have been in public for two years and more.  If there
>> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
>> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
>> ideas?  I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
>>
>> Michael McGrady
>>
>> Matt Bathje wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
>>> going to.
>>>
>>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
>>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
>>>
>>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
>>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
>>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
>>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
>>> made his changes.
>>>
>>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
>>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
>>>
>>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
>>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
>>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
>>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
>>> person has chosen as acceptable.
>>>
>>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
>>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
>>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
>>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
>>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
>>> description of the solution by its link.
>>>
>>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
>>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
>>>
>>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
>>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
>>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
>>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
>>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
>>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
>>>
>>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
>>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
>>> other solutions.
>>>
>>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
>>> of the problems we are seeing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael McGrady wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
>>>> credit your work as yours.  I did not want my name associated with
>>>> those thoughts.  I have credited others on the page.  I did not
>>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
>>>> trying to critique and to surpass.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
>>>> in any way towards you.  I am not going to get into the personal
>>>> attacks thing more than I have.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently.  Your
>>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
>>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of  this wiki page.
>>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things.  But,
>>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this.  Yours are,
>>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
>>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
>>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
>>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them?  I
>>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
>>>> page.  Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look.  We have a
>>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
>>>> same.  That is of no concern to me.  But, cleaning up this wiki
>>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
>>>>
>>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
>>>> page?  I also must state that it is clear that we have no
>>>> collaboration on this point.  You adapt the ImageButtonBean
>>>> approach and I used and rejected that.  I am presenting a series of
>>>> new approaches.
>>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
>>>> wiki.  That is not collaboration.  We are not going to collaborate
>>>> here.  We disagree, apparently.  That is okay.  Part of the wiki is
>>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think.  Why won't you let me
>>>> do that in peace?
>>>>
>>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
>>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places?  That
>>>> is the difficulty.
>>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
>>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
>>>> inferior.  Like I said, I have no animosity towards you.  All I am
>>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes.  Hopefully this will be
>>>> a new day.  I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
>>>> or the wiki will be nuked.
>>>>
>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
>>>>>
>>>>> I respected what you requested in the
>>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
>>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
>>>>> subject - I
>>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
>>>>> people should
>>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
>>>>> have put
>>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
>>>>> you also
>>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
>>>>> making
>>>>> reference to me  so last night I went through removing all those
>>>>> references.
>>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
>>>>> would
>>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
>>>>> to want
>>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
>>>>> thats the
>>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
>>>>> link to
>>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
>>>>> any
>>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
>>>>> attacks on
>>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
>>>>> do you say
>>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
>>>>> unecessary and rude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Niall
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
>>>>>> despite being
>>>>>> detailed and long.  I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
>>>>>> effectively confuses the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
>>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> links you provided.  Now you have moved the critiques to places
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
>>>>>> status
>>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable?  If there is
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
>>>>>> altogether
>>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
>>>>>> whim and
>>>>>> without much knowledge of this area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael McGrady
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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