I should tell you, Matt, that by the time I am finished with this page,
it will probably be ten times as long as it is with the stuff I already
have to put in and without covering other peoples' ideas. I am trying
to organize this presentation. That, as you notice, will be very
difficult to do. Organizing it with others jumping in the middle of it
will be harder. I don't really want help in organizing my ideas. I
would just like people to stay out of the middle while I am trying to
organize and present it.
Michael
Matt Bathje wrote:
I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as
it is easier for me.
I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem.
But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving
detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to
compare/contrast.
Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without
mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up
without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the
old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express
their opinions of all of them.
A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog
Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the
problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all
possible/known solutions defined in one place.
I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5
solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if
you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to
that is how you have formatted the page.
A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by
collaboration.
Matt
Michael McGrady wrote:
Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page
are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put
into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there
is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the
old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new
ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft.
Michael McGrady
Matt Bathje wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?)
going to.
As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is
about the sharing of ideas and collaboration.
The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner
that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in
the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The
page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall
made his changes.
Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making
better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are:
Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to
something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes
it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current
title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1
person has chosen as acceptable.
Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird
table of contents, use the wiki format. Have
"MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly
links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible
solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short
description of the solution by its link.
Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents"
page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie.
Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction
and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you
follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily
presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions.
In the comments section of the main page, people can express their
views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :)
Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell
people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try
other solutions.
Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most
of the problems we are seeing.
Matt
Michael McGrady wrote:
The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to
credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with
those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not
laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly
trying to critique and to surpass.
I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic
in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal
attacks thing more than I have.
I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your
grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect
and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page.
I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But,
you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are,
simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly
will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking.
Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying
to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I
simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex
page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a
different approach on this and are not likely to see things the
same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki
after you on a constant basis is too much for me.
The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one
page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no
collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean
approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of
new approaches.
You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the
wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate
here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is
presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me
do that in peace?
Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you
like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That
is the difficulty.
I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean
solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly
inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am
is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be
a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes,
or the wiki will be nuked.
Michael McGrady
Niall Pemberton wrote:
OK Contact me off list if you wish, however....
I respected what you requested in the
"FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki
page and all I did was add two links which were related to the
subject - I
added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested
people should
do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should
have put
them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and
you also
put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you
making
reference to me so last night I went through removing all those
references.
If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I
would
have changed was adding the two links to alternatives.
The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem
to want
your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if
thats the
case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a
link to
it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include
any
reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are.
I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal
attacks on
me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why
do you say
"without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its
unecessary and rude.
Niall
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable,
despite being
detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing
that
because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that
effectively confuses the issue.
I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not
do that.
You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki.
Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques
of the
links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places
where
they make no sense and have altered my words similarly.
Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's
status
and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is
no way
to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it
altogether
and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his
whim and
without much knowledge of this area.
Michael McGrady
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