Some comments and questions inline...
Michael McGrady wrote:
Thanks for your input, Matt. There is an end to the page and a place there for alternative viewpoints. Normally one person stops talking before the other starts. There is also the rest of the wiki where other pages can be placed. You are right that the page is hard to follow. If others put comments in the middle, it will be impossible. I had to completely jettison a previous attempt for that reason. Your suggestions are more particularly responded to within, Matt.
I am sure that collaboration is important. I am equally sure that divergent points of view are important. There may be a tendency for those with old ideas not to like new ideas presented and they may want to put the old ideas in the middle of new ideas. That is not collaboration. This is especially so when the old ideas not only have been presented elsewhere but in fact have been ensconced in the Struts framework itself.
I don't understand why this isn't collaboration. As the wiki stands now, it appears to new users that your 5 solutions are the best and that DispatchAction/ImageButtonBean are inferior, and shouldn't be used. You don't really explain why other than using generalizations that not everybody agrees with.
I don't see the systematic presentation of an idea as a "problem". I don't understand why someone wants to put their ideas in the middle of presentation of an idea. Why not at the end, or in another wiki page? Is there no place for a long systematic treatment of an alternative idea on the Struts wiki?
Maybe I misunderstand here, but you aren't trying to get at the systematic presentation of 1 idea. You are trying to display (5) possible solutions to the same problem. Others attempted to add more, and it didn't work because the page is formatted terribly. All I am saying is why not make the page more readable, and more flexible to allow as many possible solutions as people can think of.
What you want out of the wiki is not what it is designed for. The pages are changeable by anybody for a reason. If you truly want the page to be unchangeable by anybody except yourself, you need to setup a website and link the wiki to it.
This particular page is not for Struts newbies. If someone else wants to do a page for them, I would encourage that. I don't want to change this page for that purpose. This page, in fact, is likely to become more, not less, recondite. I am talking to developers more than to users here. And, more to advanced users than newbies.
I'm not sure what you mean by "developers more than users". Anybody looking at the wiki is going to be a developer. Some may be experienced with struts and some may be new to it, but I think many/most at least now a bit about java and would be able to understand any solution presented after some reading. Newbies to struts are developers.
When I was learning struts and needed a multiple button solution, I looked at what was available (basically just the dispatchactions) and decided how to handle it. If I could have looked at the wiki and saw 5 (or more) possible alternatives, and the pros/cons of each, I would have been overjoyed. I was a newbie to struts, but still would have been able to handle what you are presenting here.
Everything everyone wants does not need to be on this page. Try using another page. The only difficulty here is that two people with very divergent views in this area have been trying to write in the same space. I have tried to manage this by giving a space at the end. The real alternative that makes sense would be for people who are not collaborating not to speak at the same time in the same place. The divergence is good, but it must be managed.
What I am suggesting is alternate pages for all possible solutions. Just break your 5 solutions up into 5 pages, then allow others to add their solutions to an "index" page of all solutions. This makes it much easier to collaborate.
Part of the difficulty, Matt, is that you don't know where I am going on this page. I might have been there already, but I have had to keep
I would suggest getting all your ideas together offline and presenting them in the wiki when you are done then.
changing the page. I have a lot more that is going on this page. I have a very detailed button solution. Isn't there a place we can put detailed solutions rather than one, two or three liners?
Yes, you can have 5 extremely detailed pages that will (most likely) be much more easy to understand than the 1 convoluted mess you have now.
If someone wants to do the things you mention with DispatchAction, why do it here? This wiki page is about a different solution. Why do all the people who want to maintain the status quo need to have a say in the middle of the presentation of an alternative idea? I don't see that as a good policy. Alternative views ought to be heard too.
Your solution essentially will make a nice little article on what everyone wants to do. That is not my objective. I am trying to put together a generic button solution which has a particular tilt. I am not trying to lecture on the history of the problem and its vissisitudes but to present a new series of ideas. Can I do that here? So far I have been stymied twice by people who have no idea what I am trying to do putting their ideas in the middle of my presentation.
I merely ask why they cannot put in their two cents at the end or put up their own wiki page with their concerns? If that is not possible, then I don't see how alternative points of view can be protected from those who want to flood the middle of a presentation with their own ideas. What value is their in making a presentation unreadable by putting in your alternative and disconsonant ideas in the middle of a presentation?
Well...you can't do what you want on a wiki, no. If I have an opinion about your solution, the logical (and pretty much only) place for it is in the wiki page. If I have an alternative to your solution (even if you don't like it) it can go in the wiki page wherever I think it would fit. That is the nature of a wiki. If you can't handle alternate opinions "destroying your ideas" you really do need a separate website.
I don't want to even try to seek the solution you offer, Matt. It may be a good solution, but it ends up doing something I am not trying to do. I am not trying to present Niall's ideas. I am trying to present mine. My idea are very involved and this wiki page will evolve as I get things presented better. I cannot do so, however, if I have to continually salve the needs of those who want their ideas presented in this space.
I am not asking you to present anybody's ideas except your own. I am just suggesting that you make it easier for others to present ideas that are contrary (but completley 100% related) to yours.
I am done with this, because it really does seem you either don't understand the concept of a wiki or you truly don't want to collaborate with others.
Matt
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