+1  words - and especially brief once as emails - are just a mapping from the 
reality to some 'transport mechanism' (Claude Shannon sender theoreme anyone?).
And of course each 'map' is a huge simplification from the reality and thus 
prone to be misinterpreted.

The important part here is that those clashes bring up some difference in view. 
And yes, I also think this has nothing to do with immature or childish. We are 
all just passionate.
So the first very important step is to identify the pain point. 

For Romain and me, etc is to avoid duplication of work which already got done 
in other ASF projects.
And to not have those modules hardcoded bound to the TomEE Application Server 
but to be reusable for other projects. 
Please note that I'm talking about the Appliation Server only and not about the 
TomEE project as governance body.

I also had an important lesson in the 90s:

If you have a problem
1.) solve it
2.) if you cannot solve it, live with it
3.) if you cannot live with it, leave it.

More generally:
There are some points which totally doesn't matter to someone. 
There are other points which we would love to see a certain outcome, but we 
would also perfectly accept a compromise.
And is also a category of points where we simply cannot live with a compromise. 
Or where we would simply stop being part of it.

In the current situation it's pretty easy. NONE of the cases fits. 
It was simply a misunderstanding. 
Andy wanted to commit samples and integrate mp-config to TomEE.
This is perfectly fine, but the commit comment and the location was very easy 
to get misinterpreted.
And that's exactly what happens. 

That's like you forbid your daughter to use your car and then she snatches your 
You shout at her, but only after she bursts out in tears you find out that she 
only wanted to wash your car as a birthday present...

And now back to work pretty please ;)


> Am 13.02.2018 um 07:38 schrieb dsh <daniel.hais...@gmail.com>:
> All,
> I followed what David calls "incidents" or "childish" quite closely in the
> past. Why? Cause such situations are quite familiar to me. I've been there
> thousands of times and what I can tell for granted is that non of these
> situations are neither "incidents" nor "childish".
> As a matter of fact each individual has a certain believe system on one
> hand and on the other hand lives on his/her own island. The latter I use as
> an explanation for the fact that we all have our own perception of what we
> think reality is and it usually isn't congruent with the perception of
> others. If either your believe systems are conflicting or your perception
> of what you think is reality are clashing, you usually have such
> "incidents".
> That said I learned the hard way that usually you are not fighting, like in
> this case, about backed out code but it's usually something inter-personal.
> What makes me wondering especially if I think about all the Twitter and
> Facebook posts where I see you guys hanging out together is, that such, as
> I suspect it inter-personal conflicts, erupt on the mailing list or over
> code commits, where my naive understanding is, that you could talk
> face-to-face to nail down what really drives you crazy.
> What I learned is that it doesn't quite help, neither from the perspective
> of somebody that is involved, nor from the perspective of somebody who is a
> leader to finger point or to call out individuals. In the end you turned
> this into a mess and thus you have to fix it TOGETHER. If necessary you
> could even pull in a coach from outside. I for myself applied for a coach
> back in 2015. It's not a silver bullet and does not fix everything you
> screwed up in the past but it sometimes helps to have somebody with a
> neutral view and another opinion.
> In the end my perception of reality on my little island is that you all
> bond a very strong team. I saw and worked with teams that were no real team
> in the end. In your case I don't have such a perception and thus I believe
> that you get this sorted out in a sustainable manner. Take it as a growth
> opportunity!
> Cheers
> Daniel
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:33 AM, David Blevins <david.blev...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Ok, community, we have to have another quick talk and then hopefully we
>> can go back to being awesome.
>> This thread got very negative and bares a striking resemblance to the
>> "Suffocating Development Environment" thread from the June 27th incident.
>> Yes, I've written about it enough times in the board reports that I have
>> the date memorized.  What I've written is mostly positive and been praised
>> by the board for our handling of a hard situation.  You're all making a
>> liar out of me. :)
>> I was delicate in the first situation, but now I have to be a bit more
>> direct.
>> In the June 27th incident we had Andy committing code, Romain reverting
>> it, the two exchanging insults for one hour till Andy quit complaining that
>> he's working in his spare time implies Romain is killing the project.  Mark
>> joins attempting to take some heat off of Romain.  Jon joins attempting to
>> be as neutral as possible.  In the end both Mark and Jon apologize.  Andy's
>> code stays reverted.
>> In this incident Andy committed code. Mark and Romain begin arguing.
>> Insults are exchanged for one hour till Andy quits complaining that he's
>> working in his spare time and implies Romain is killing the project.  Jon
>> joins attempting to be as neutral as possible.  In the end both Mark and
>> Jon apologize.  Andy's code stays reverted.  This time it's all Tomitribe's
>> fault.
>> Am I the only one to notice a pattern?  That pattern is not one person's
>> fault.  The pattern is we are behaving like children.
>> This will not get better if each of us is expecting the other guy to
>> change.  If your only response to this email is find flaws in others, I
>> guarantee nothing will get better.
>> Mark, you got there in the end which is great.  You pointed out something
>> you could have done better and something Andy could do better.  That's the
>> right pattern.  People are much more willing to accept feedback when they
>> see you're also willing to accept it.
>> We need to get there sooner next time and we need more than one person
>> doing it.
>> So with all that said, how do we turn this into an awesome learning
>> experience that makes us stronger?
>> -David
>>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Andy Gumbrecht <agumbre...@tomitribe.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Added project stubs: https://github.com/apache/
>> tomee/tree/master/microprofile
>>> Andy.
>>> On 05/02/18 11:17, Jean-Louis Monteiro wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Ok thanks guys.
>>>> @Rudy, you are most welcome :)
>>>> --
>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Rudy De Busscher <
>> rdebussc...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I think it is a very important spec, also for non-microprofile
>>>>> implementations as it can enhance the interoperability of all servers.
>>>>> I'm also very interested in the implementation (and want to help a bit
>> with
>>>>> it also :) )
>>>>> regards
>>>>> Rudy
>>>>> On 2 February 2018 at 11:23, Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> To clarify this even further:
>>>>>> The Geronimo Server is now officially dead.
>>>>>> But the Geronimo project is not. It alredy contains quite a few
>> modular
>>>>>> parts which are reused in many ASF projects and also outside.
>>>>>> Examples is the geronimo-transaction-manager, geronimo-javamail,
>>>>>> geronimo-config, xbean-finder, etc
>>>>>> Of course it would probably make sense to fold those 2 projects
>> together,
>>>>>> as already discussed in the past.
>>>>>> I'm still all open to it, but I have an important criterium to fulfil:
>>>>>> If we move those portable parts to TomEE, then this would mean that
>> TomEE
>>>>>> would become an 'Umbrella project'.
>>>>>> And further that we would need a new name for those portable parts.
>>>>>> They would effectively be mainatained by the TomEE community (which
>> has a
>>>>>> big overlap with Geronimo anyway) but those parts must clearly be
>>>>>> recognized separately from TomEE.
>>>>>> Otherwise people will assume that those parts only work within TomEE -
>>>>>> where in reality they would even work on WildFly or Liberty, etc. or
>>>>> even a
>>>>>> naked Tomcat.
>>>>>> Got me?
>>>>>> We might e.g. brand them as 'TomEE Geronimo Spare Parts Department' :)
>>>>>> LieGrue,
>>>>>> strub
>>>>>> PS: I'd also love to keep the org.apache.geronimo package name to ease
>>>>>> backward compatibility.
>>>>>>> Am 02.02.2018 um 11:08 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 11:05 GMT+01:00 Otávio Gonçalves de Santana <
>>>>>>> osant...@tomitribe.com>:
>>>>>>>> Guys, I have a question:
>>>>>>>> Why not a project to each implementation?
>>>>>>> this is the case but geronimo is used as an umbrella project.
>>>>>>>> This way I can use just a specific if I want also.
>>>>>>> exactly the goal and user usage AFAIK ;)
>>>>>>> long story short: we learnt from the past errors and since always the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> people work on these projects it is better to not split it accross N
>>>>>>> communities since
>>>>>>> it leads to a lot of efforts for these people. Having a single
>> umbrella
>>>>>>> project with N subprojects reduces the administrative work etc and
>>>>>> enhance
>>>>>>> the projects productivity.
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi JL,
>>>>>>>>> Microprofile apache effort is hosted in geronimo and John already
>>>>> spoke
>>>>>>>>> about it I think. Would probably saner to keep it all at the same
>>>>> place
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the foundation.
>>>>>>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>>>>>>> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> |  Blog
>>>>>>>>> <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog
>>>>>>>>> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github <https://github.com/
>>>>>>>>> rmannibucau> |
>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-
>>>>>>>>> ee-8-high-performance>
>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 9:39 GMT+01:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <
>>>>>> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com
>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if we could have the Microprofile JWT implemented
>> in
>>>>>>>>> TomEE.
>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>> I was reading the spec and I'd like to contribute that in.
>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>> --
>>> Andy Gumbrecht
>>> https://twitter.com/AndyGeeDe
>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>> https://www.tomitribe.io
>>> Ubique

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