Agreeing with Mark. The answer to the first "why" mail would have removed the ambiguity my comment would have been "move the examples with others in examples/ instead of creating a new microprofile branch".
Romain Manni-Bucau @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github <https://github.com/rmannibucau> | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book <https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance> 2018-02-13 10:25 GMT+01:00 Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid>: > It's our duty as PMC members to review committs. And of course a commit > with the comment 'starting a thing which was decided not to be done' should > spark EVERYONES curiosity. > > All the PMC members at TomEE and Geronimo have been aware of the > discussions and nobody said anything against putting the reusable parts at > Geronimo. Au contraire it was widely agreed. Both the Geronimo PMC and also > the TomEE PMC have been discussing this for months. > > Romain and I spent lots of time to find a viable compromise which is in > the best interest of the broader communities. This included the option of > moving the existing Geronimo parts to TomEE. Actually whether those parts > are hosted at TomEE or Geronimo is really a minor point. After all the > _active_ people are the same in both projects anyway. > > Andy made his intent clear now, I applogized. And I don't feel bad for it. > Because it was very important to clarify the situation. > > LieGrue, > strub > > > > Am 13.02.2018 um 09:52 schrieb Jean-Louis Monteiro < > jlmonte...@tomitribe.com>: > > > > Morning Mark, > > > > I appreciate the feedback, but I disagree. > > > > Adding an @Ignore on a test failing does not fix the issue (either the > test > > or the code) > > Putting a napkin over some c... does not clean it up. > > > > This is not the first time it happens, so I'd rather prefer the community > > to vent, put the problems on the table so we can tackle them, instead of > > pretending the problem is solved and in one month from now, we are in the > > same position. > > > > I do not plan to put fuel on the fire. > > > > I'm suggesting that instead of shooting at the daughter and therefor not > > getting any chance to know it was a present, one should first ask > > questions. > > "My sweet heart, why do you have the keys of the car?" > > "What do you plan to do with them?" > > > > I was trying to add some guidance to your good example of the daughter > and > > her father. > > > > You are a father, so am I. > > > > Hope it helps. > > > > > > > > -- > > Jean-Louis Monteiro > > http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro > > http://www.tomitribe.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid > > > > wrote: > > > >> Please all stop putting fuel into the fire. > >> > >> LieGrue, > >> strub > >> > >> > >>> Am 13.02.2018 um 08:48 schrieb Jean-Louis Monteiro < > >> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com>: > >>> > >>> Instead of shooting to someone or start arguing. Simply asking would > take > >>> all misunderstand off and avoid this disgusting mess. > >>> > >>> Le 13 févr. 2018 08:33, "Mark Struberg" <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid> a > >>> écrit : > >>> > >>>> +1 words - and especially brief once as emails - are just a mapping > >> from > >>>> the reality to some 'transport mechanism' (Claude Shannon sender > >> theoreme > >>>> anyone?). > >>>> And of course each 'map' is a huge simplification from the reality and > >>>> thus prone to be misinterpreted. > >>>> > >>>> The important part here is that those clashes bring up some difference > >> in > >>>> view. > >>>> And yes, I also think this has nothing to do with immature or > childish. > >> We > >>>> are all just passionate. > >>>> So the first very important step is to identify the pain point. > >>>> > >>>> For Romain and me, etc is to avoid duplication of work which already > got > >>>> done in other ASF projects. > >>>> And to not have those modules hardcoded bound to the TomEE Application > >>>> Server but to be reusable for other projects. > >>>> Please note that I'm talking about the Appliation Server only and not > >>>> about the TomEE project as governance body. > >>>> > >>>> I also had an important lesson in the 90s: > >>>> > >>>> If you have a problem > >>>> 1.) solve it > >>>> 2.) if you cannot solve it, live with it > >>>> 3.) if you cannot live with it, leave it. > >>>> > >>>> More generally: > >>>> There are some points which totally doesn't matter to someone. > >>>> There are other points which we would love to see a certain outcome, > but > >>>> we would also perfectly accept a compromise. > >>>> And is also a category of points where we simply cannot live with a > >>>> compromise. Or where we would simply stop being part of it. > >>>> > >>>> In the current situation it's pretty easy. NONE of the cases fits. > >>>> It was simply a misunderstanding. > >>>> Andy wanted to commit samples and integrate mp-config to TomEE. > >>>> This is perfectly fine, but the commit comment and the location was > very > >>>> easy to get misinterpreted. > >>>> And that's exactly what happens. > >>>> > >>>> That's like you forbid your daughter to use your car and then she > >> snatches > >>>> your keys. > >>>> You shout at her, but only after she bursts out in tears you find out > >> that > >>>> she only wanted to wash your car as a birthday present... > >>>> > >>>> And now back to work pretty please ;) > >>>> > >>>> LieGrue, > >>>> strub > >>>> > >>>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 07:38 schrieb dsh <daniel.hais...@gmail.com>: > >>>>> > >>>>> All, > >>>>> > >>>>> I followed what David calls "incidents" or "childish" quite closely > in > >>>> the > >>>>> past. Why? Cause such situations are quite familiar to me. I've been > >>>> there > >>>>> thousands of times and what I can tell for granted is that non of > these > >>>>> situations are neither "incidents" nor "childish". > >>>>> > >>>>> As a matter of fact each individual has a certain believe system on > one > >>>>> hand and on the other hand lives on his/her own island. The latter I > >> use > >>>> as > >>>>> an explanation for the fact that we all have our own perception of > what > >>>> we > >>>>> think reality is and it usually isn't congruent with the perception > of > >>>>> others. If either your believe systems are conflicting or your > >> perception > >>>>> of what you think is reality are clashing, you usually have such > >>>>> "incidents". > >>>>> > >>>>> That said I learned the hard way that usually you are not fighting, > >> like > >>>> in > >>>>> this case, about backed out code but it's usually something > >>>> inter-personal. > >>>>> What makes me wondering especially if I think about all the Twitter > and > >>>>> Facebook posts where I see you guys hanging out together is, that > such, > >>>> as > >>>>> I suspect it inter-personal conflicts, erupt on the mailing list or > >> over > >>>>> code commits, where my naive understanding is, that you could talk > >>>>> face-to-face to nail down what really drives you crazy. > >>>>> > >>>>> What I learned is that it doesn't quite help, neither from the > >>>> perspective > >>>>> of somebody that is involved, nor from the perspective of somebody > who > >>>> is a > >>>>> leader to finger point or to call out individuals. In the end you > >> turned > >>>>> this into a mess and thus you have to fix it TOGETHER. If necessary > you > >>>>> could even pull in a coach from outside. I for myself applied for a > >> coach > >>>>> back in 2015. It's not a silver bullet and does not fix everything > you > >>>>> screwed up in the past but it sometimes helps to have somebody with a > >>>>> neutral view and another opinion. > >>>>> > >>>>> In the end my perception of reality on my little island is that you > all > >>>>> bond a very strong team. I saw and worked with teams that were no > real > >>>> team > >>>>> in the end. In your case I don't have such a perception and thus I > >>>> believe > >>>>> that you get this sorted out in a sustainable manner. Take it as a > >> growth > >>>>> opportunity! > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers > >>>>> Daniel > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:33 AM, David Blevins < > >> david.blev...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Ok, community, we have to have another quick talk and then hopefully > >> we > >>>>>> can go back to being awesome. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This thread got very negative and bares a striking resemblance to > the > >>>>>> "Suffocating Development Environment" thread from the June 27th > >>>> incident. > >>>>>> Yes, I've written about it enough times in the board reports that I > >> have > >>>>>> the date memorized. What I've written is mostly positive and been > >>>> praised > >>>>>> by the board for our handling of a hard situation. You're all > making > >> a > >>>>>> liar out of me. :) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I was delicate in the first situation, but now I have to be a bit > more > >>>>>> direct. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the June 27th incident we had Andy committing code, Romain > >> reverting > >>>>>> it, the two exchanging insults for one hour till Andy quit > complaining > >>>> that > >>>>>> he's working in his spare time implies Romain is killing the > project. > >>>> Mark > >>>>>> joins attempting to take some heat off of Romain. Jon joins > >> attempting > >>>> to > >>>>>> be as neutral as possible. In the end both Mark and Jon apologize. > >>>> Andy's > >>>>>> code stays reverted. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In this incident Andy committed code. Mark and Romain begin arguing. > >>>>>> Insults are exchanged for one hour till Andy quits complaining that > >> he's > >>>>>> working in his spare time and implies Romain is killing the project. > >>>> Jon > >>>>>> joins attempting to be as neutral as possible. In the end both Mark > >> and > >>>>>> Jon apologize. Andy's code stays reverted. This time it's all > >>>> Tomitribe's > >>>>>> fault. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Am I the only one to notice a pattern? That pattern is not one > >> person's > >>>>>> fault. The pattern is we are behaving like children. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This will not get better if each of us is expecting the other guy to > >>>>>> change. If your only response to this email is find flaws in > others, > >> I > >>>>>> guarantee nothing will get better. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mark, you got there in the end which is great. You pointed out > >>>> something > >>>>>> you could have done better and something Andy could do better. > That's > >>>> the > >>>>>> right pattern. People are much more willing to accept feedback when > >>>> they > >>>>>> see you're also willing to accept it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We need to get there sooner next time and we need more than one > person > >>>>>> doing it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So with all that said, how do we turn this into an awesome learning > >>>>>> experience that makes us stronger? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -David > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Andy Gumbrecht < > >> agumbre...@tomitribe.com > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Added project stubs: https://github.com/apache/ > >>>>>> tomee/tree/master/microprofile > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Andy. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 05/02/18 11:17, Jean-Louis Monteiro wrote: > >>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ok thanks guys. > >>>>>>>> @Rudy, you are most welcome :) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro > >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro > >>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Rudy De Busscher < > >>>>>> rdebussc...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think it is a very important spec, also for non-microprofile > >>>>>>>>> implementations as it can enhance the interoperability of all > >>>> servers. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'm also very interested in the implementation (and want to help > a > >>>> bit > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>> it also :) ) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> regards > >>>>>>>>> Rudy > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 2 February 2018 at 11:23, Mark Struberg > >> <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> To clarify this even further: > >>>>>>>>>> The Geronimo Server is now officially dead. > >>>>>>>>>> But the Geronimo project is not. It alredy contains quite a few > >>>>>> modular > >>>>>>>>>> parts which are reused in many ASF projects and also outside. > >>>>>>>>>> Examples is the geronimo-transaction-manager, geronimo-javamail, > >>>>>>>>>> geronimo-config, xbean-finder, etc > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Of course it would probably make sense to fold those 2 projects > >>>>>> together, > >>>>>>>>>> as already discussed in the past. > >>>>>>>>>> I'm still all open to it, but I have an important criterium to > >>>> fulfil: > >>>>>>>>>> If we move those portable parts to TomEE, then this would mean > >> that > >>>>>> TomEE > >>>>>>>>>> would become an 'Umbrella project'. > >>>>>>>>>> And further that we would need a new name for those portable > >> parts. > >>>>>>>>>> They would effectively be mainatained by the TomEE community > >> (which > >>>>>> has a > >>>>>>>>>> big overlap with Geronimo anyway) but those parts must clearly > be > >>>>>>>>>> recognized separately from TomEE. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Otherwise people will assume that those parts only work within > >>>> TomEE - > >>>>>>>>>> where in reality they would even work on WildFly or Liberty, > etc. > >> or > >>>>>>>>> even a > >>>>>>>>>> naked Tomcat. > >>>>>>>>>> Got me? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> We might e.g. brand them as 'TomEE Geronimo Spare Parts > >> Department' > >>>> :) > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> LieGrue, > >>>>>>>>>> strub > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> PS: I'd also love to keep the org.apache.geronimo package name > to > >>>> ease > >>>>>>>>>> backward compatibility. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Am 02.02.2018 um 11:08 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau < > >>>>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>> : > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 11:05 GMT+01:00 Otávio Gonçalves de Santana < > >>>>>>>>>>> osant...@tomitribe.com>: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Guys, I have a question: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not a project to each implementation? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> this is the case but geronimo is used as an umbrella project. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> This way I can use just a specific if I want also. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> exactly the goal and user usage AFAIK ;) > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> long story short: we learnt from the past errors and since > always > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> same > >>>>>>>>>>> people work on these projects it is better to not split it > >> accross > >>>> N > >>>>>>>>>>> communities since > >>>>>>>>>>> it leads to a lot of efforts for these people. Having a single > >>>>>> umbrella > >>>>>>>>>>> project with N subprojects reduces the administrative work etc > >> and > >>>>>>>>>> enhance > >>>>>>>>>>> the projects productivity. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau < > >>>>>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi JL, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Microprofile apache effort is hosted in geronimo and John > >> already > >>>>>>>>> spoke > >>>>>>>>>>>>> about it I think. Would probably saner to keep it all at the > >> same > >>>>>>>>> place > >>>>>>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the foundation. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau > >>>>>>>>>>>>> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github < > >> https://github.com/ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> rmannibucau> | > >>>>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ee-8-high-performance> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 9:39 GMT+01:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro < > >>>>>>>>>> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>> : > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if we could have the Microprofile JWT > >>>> implemented > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>>>> TomEE. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was reading the spec and I'd like to contribute that in. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Andy Gumbrecht > >>>>>>> https://twitter.com/AndyGeeDe > >>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com > >>>>>>> https://www.tomitribe.io > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ubique > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >
