Please all stop putting fuel into the fire. 

LieGrue,
strub


> Am 13.02.2018 um 08:48 schrieb Jean-Louis Monteiro <jlmonte...@tomitribe.com>:
> 
> Instead of shooting to someone or start arguing. Simply asking would take
> all misunderstand off and avoid this disgusting mess.
> 
> Le 13 févr. 2018 08:33, "Mark Struberg" <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid> a
> écrit :
> 
>> +1  words - and especially brief once as emails - are just a mapping from
>> the reality to some 'transport mechanism' (Claude Shannon sender theoreme
>> anyone?).
>> And of course each 'map' is a huge simplification from the reality and
>> thus prone to be misinterpreted.
>> 
>> The important part here is that those clashes bring up some difference in
>> view.
>> And yes, I also think this has nothing to do with immature or childish. We
>> are all just passionate.
>> So the first very important step is to identify the pain point.
>> 
>> For Romain and me, etc is to avoid duplication of work which already got
>> done in other ASF projects.
>> And to not have those modules hardcoded bound to the TomEE Application
>> Server but to be reusable for other projects.
>> Please note that I'm talking about the Appliation Server only and not
>> about the TomEE project as governance body.
>> 
>> I also had an important lesson in the 90s:
>> 
>> If you have a problem
>> 1.) solve it
>> 2.) if you cannot solve it, live with it
>> 3.) if you cannot live with it, leave it.
>> 
>> More generally:
>> There are some points which totally doesn't matter to someone.
>> There are other points which we would love to see a certain outcome, but
>> we would also perfectly accept a compromise.
>> And is also a category of points where we simply cannot live with a
>> compromise. Or where we would simply stop being part of it.
>> 
>> In the current situation it's pretty easy. NONE of the cases fits.
>> It was simply a misunderstanding.
>> Andy wanted to commit samples and integrate mp-config to TomEE.
>> This is perfectly fine, but the commit comment and the location was very
>> easy to get misinterpreted.
>> And that's exactly what happens.
>> 
>> That's like you forbid your daughter to use your car and then she snatches
>> your keys.
>> You shout at her, but only after she bursts out in tears you find out that
>> she only wanted to wash your car as a birthday present...
>> 
>> And now back to work pretty please ;)
>> 
>> LieGrue,
>> strub
>> 
>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 07:38 schrieb dsh <daniel.hais...@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> All,
>>> 
>>> I followed what David calls "incidents" or "childish" quite closely in
>> the
>>> past. Why? Cause such situations are quite familiar to me. I've been
>> there
>>> thousands of times and what I can tell for granted is that non of these
>>> situations are neither "incidents" nor "childish".
>>> 
>>> As a matter of fact each individual has a certain believe system on one
>>> hand and on the other hand lives on his/her own island. The latter I use
>> as
>>> an explanation for the fact that we all have our own perception of what
>> we
>>> think reality is and it usually isn't congruent with the perception of
>>> others. If either your believe systems are conflicting or your perception
>>> of what you think is reality are clashing, you usually have such
>>> "incidents".
>>> 
>>> That said I learned the hard way that usually you are not fighting, like
>> in
>>> this case, about backed out code but it's usually something
>> inter-personal.
>>> What makes me wondering especially if I think about all the Twitter and
>>> Facebook posts where I see you guys hanging out together is, that such,
>> as
>>> I suspect it inter-personal conflicts, erupt on the mailing list or over
>>> code commits, where my naive understanding is, that you could talk
>>> face-to-face to nail down what really drives you crazy.
>>> 
>>> What I learned is that it doesn't quite help, neither from the
>> perspective
>>> of somebody that is involved, nor from the perspective of somebody who
>> is a
>>> leader to finger point or to call out individuals. In the end you turned
>>> this into a mess and thus you have to fix it TOGETHER. If necessary you
>>> could even pull in a coach from outside. I for myself applied for a coach
>>> back in 2015. It's not a silver bullet and does not fix everything you
>>> screwed up in the past but it sometimes helps to have somebody with a
>>> neutral view and another opinion.
>>> 
>>> In the end my perception of reality on my little island is that you all
>>> bond a very strong team. I saw and worked with teams that were no real
>> team
>>> in the end. In your case I don't have such a perception and thus I
>> believe
>>> that you get this sorted out in a sustainable manner. Take it as a growth
>>> opportunity!
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> Daniel
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:33 AM, David Blevins <david.blev...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ok, community, we have to have another quick talk and then hopefully we
>>>> can go back to being awesome.
>>>> 
>>>> This thread got very negative and bares a striking resemblance to the
>>>> "Suffocating Development Environment" thread from the June 27th
>> incident.
>>>> Yes, I've written about it enough times in the board reports that I have
>>>> the date memorized.  What I've written is mostly positive and been
>> praised
>>>> by the board for our handling of a hard situation.  You're all making a
>>>> liar out of me. :)
>>>> 
>>>> I was delicate in the first situation, but now I have to be a bit more
>>>> direct.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In the June 27th incident we had Andy committing code, Romain reverting
>>>> it, the two exchanging insults for one hour till Andy quit complaining
>> that
>>>> he's working in his spare time implies Romain is killing the project.
>> Mark
>>>> joins attempting to take some heat off of Romain.  Jon joins attempting
>> to
>>>> be as neutral as possible.  In the end both Mark and Jon apologize.
>> Andy's
>>>> code stays reverted.
>>>> 
>>>> In this incident Andy committed code. Mark and Romain begin arguing.
>>>> Insults are exchanged for one hour till Andy quits complaining that he's
>>>> working in his spare time and implies Romain is killing the project.
>> Jon
>>>> joins attempting to be as neutral as possible.  In the end both Mark and
>>>> Jon apologize.  Andy's code stays reverted.  This time it's all
>> Tomitribe's
>>>> fault.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Am I the only one to notice a pattern?  That pattern is not one person's
>>>> fault.  The pattern is we are behaving like children.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This will not get better if each of us is expecting the other guy to
>>>> change.  If your only response to this email is find flaws in others, I
>>>> guarantee nothing will get better.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark, you got there in the end which is great.  You pointed out
>> something
>>>> you could have done better and something Andy could do better.  That's
>> the
>>>> right pattern.  People are much more willing to accept feedback when
>> they
>>>> see you're also willing to accept it.
>>>> 
>>>> We need to get there sooner next time and we need more than one person
>>>> doing it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So with all that said, how do we turn this into an awesome learning
>>>> experience that makes us stronger?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Andy Gumbrecht <agumbre...@tomitribe.com
>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Added project stubs: https://github.com/apache/
>>>> tomee/tree/master/microprofile
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 05/02/18 11:17, Jean-Louis Monteiro wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ok thanks guys.
>>>>>> @Rudy, you are most welcome :)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Rudy De Busscher <
>>>> rdebussc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think it is a very important spec, also for non-microprofile
>>>>>>> implementations as it can enhance the interoperability of all
>> servers.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm also very interested in the implementation (and want to help a
>> bit
>>>> with
>>>>>>> it also :) )
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> regards
>>>>>>> Rudy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2 February 2018 at 11:23, Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid
>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> To clarify this even further:
>>>>>>>> The Geronimo Server is now officially dead.
>>>>>>>> But the Geronimo project is not. It alredy contains quite a few
>>>> modular
>>>>>>>> parts which are reused in many ASF projects and also outside.
>>>>>>>> Examples is the geronimo-transaction-manager, geronimo-javamail,
>>>>>>>> geronimo-config, xbean-finder, etc
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Of course it would probably make sense to fold those 2 projects
>>>> together,
>>>>>>>> as already discussed in the past.
>>>>>>>> I'm still all open to it, but I have an important criterium to
>> fulfil:
>>>>>>>> If we move those portable parts to TomEE, then this would mean that
>>>> TomEE
>>>>>>>> would become an 'Umbrella project'.
>>>>>>>> And further that we would need a new name for those portable parts.
>>>>>>>> They would effectively be mainatained by the TomEE community (which
>>>> has a
>>>>>>>> big overlap with Geronimo anyway) but those parts must clearly be
>>>>>>>> recognized separately from TomEE.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Otherwise people will assume that those parts only work within
>> TomEE -
>>>>>>>> where in reality they would even work on WildFly or Liberty, etc. or
>>>>>>> even a
>>>>>>>> naked Tomcat.
>>>>>>>> Got me?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We might e.g. brand them as 'TomEE Geronimo Spare Parts Department'
>> :)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> LieGrue,
>>>>>>>> strub
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> PS: I'd also love to keep the org.apache.geronimo package name to
>> ease
>>>>>>>> backward compatibility.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Am 02.02.2018 um 11:08 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
>>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 11:05 GMT+01:00 Otávio Gonçalves de Santana <
>>>>>>>>> osant...@tomitribe.com>:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Guys, I have a question:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Why not a project to each implementation?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> this is the case but geronimo is used as an umbrella project.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This way I can use just a specific if I want also.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> exactly the goal and user usage AFAIK ;)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> long story short: we learnt from the past errors and since always
>> the
>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>> people work on these projects it is better to not split it accross
>> N
>>>>>>>>> communities since
>>>>>>>>> it leads to a lot of efforts for these people. Having a single
>>>> umbrella
>>>>>>>>> project with N subprojects reduces the administrative work etc and
>>>>>>>> enhance
>>>>>>>>> the projects productivity.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
>>>>>>>> rmannibu...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi JL,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Microprofile apache effort is hosted in geronimo and John already
>>>>>>> spoke
>>>>>>>>>>> about it I think. Would probably saner to keep it all at the same
>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the foundation.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>>>>>>>>> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> |  Blog
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github <https://github.com/
>>>>>>>>>>> rmannibucau> |
>>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-
>>>>>>>>>>> ee-8-high-performance>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 2018-02-02 9:39 GMT+01:00 Jean-Louis Monteiro <
>>>>>>>> jlmonte...@tomitribe.com
>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if we could have the Microprofile JWT
>> implemented
>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> TomEE.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was reading the spec and I'd like to contribute that in.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean-Louis Monteiro
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andy Gumbrecht
>>>>> https://twitter.com/AndyGeeDe
>>>>> http://www.tomitribe.com
>>>>> https://www.tomitribe.io
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ubique
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 

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