On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
> * I don't agree with the rules defined at > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%29.aspx > and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation. > * I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC > language. I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the > languages. > > This being said: > * Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase > (Sentence cap). This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs > to be fixed. > * The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap), > and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case > scenario. What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words > in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page, > Comment, etc.), examples: > - 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page > is an entity is capitalized > but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing. > > So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap' > rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no. > I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as > described above. > > Note that I also agree that Sentence Case is the safest and (AFAIK) cross-language rule we could enforce. On a technical note, it is also probably the only rule we *can* do automatically, with CSS: p:first-child { text-transform:uppercase; } So, if it is an option, I would rather we do that instead of (or at least additionally to) the proposed Microsoft (manual) guidelines. Thanks, Eduard Thanks, > Caty > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: > > [email protected])) wrote: > > > > > The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those > rules > > > before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on > > > automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules. > > > > The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing > about > > the rule. > > > > This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, > > nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English > > language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer > > and everyone saying yes of course. > > > > I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization > > rules defined at > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx > > for the English language and make that our rule and publish it? > > > > I personally agree about it. > > > > Once we agree about it then: > > - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too > > - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow > it > > (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) > > - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically > > implement it using CSS > > > > Thanks > > -Vincent > > > > > Thanks, > > > Eduard > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Let’s backtrack! > > > > > > > > The question I asked was NOT how do it! > > > > > > > > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined > > at > > > > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx > > and > > > > make that our own rule ad publish it. > > > > > > > > Please try to answer that question. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected] > > (mailto: > > > > [email protected])) wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the > translation's > > > > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to > have > > a > > > > lot > > > > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a > > CSS > > > > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent. > > > > > > > > > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri > > skin, as > > > > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start > > modifying > > > > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new > > translations > > > > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do > > that. We > > > > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a > couple > > of > > > > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise > > CSS > > > > > itself is useless. > > > > > > > > > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, > > button > > > > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still > need > > to > > > > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and > > what CSS > > > > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will > > still > > > > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can > > not > > > > > catch with CSS. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in > the > > > > skin > > > > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your > > > > solution we > > > > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the > new > > > > format. > > > > > > Is a lengthy process. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one > > > > language, > > > > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. > > > > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to > > Emanuel, > > > > all > > > > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were > uppercase. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Caty, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing > > the > > > > > > > > Translations? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone > doesn't > > > > like it, > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. > > Also > > > > note > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems > > > > > > capitalizing > > > > > > > > all the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your example: > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the > > words or > > > > > > none, > > > > > > > > we cannot skip one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * extra CPU work not required > > > > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" > > > > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed > to > > > > change! > > > > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the > > translations > > > > > > (similar > > > > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not > > > > proposing > > > > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules > > > > regarding > > > > > > > Capitalization). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional > > :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Manuel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels > ( > > > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think > > it’s a > > > > good > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule > for > > > > > > > Capitalization > > > > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on > > > > dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > -Vincent > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
