autopilot;358313 Wrote: > Wow, that's low. There are other nations troops -fighting- there, > including a great deal of British who are in constant combat. There has > been a lot of deaths, including a few from my home town.
the english by far and away have been the best to support us, but they have not done all they could do. however, my commen was NOT directed at ONLY the british. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > We are a very small nation so we have less troops there than the US, what? there's something like 60 million people in your country. you guys USED to rule the world, but now you're tiny? autopilot;358313 Wrote: > but a lot for us and they are fighting and fighting hard, they are not > cook's - that's incredibly insulting to there memories and patronising. > Statements like that lead me to wonder what else you don't understand > about what really going on in the world, not much credibility gained > there i'm sorry. i wasn't referring to the english, you have deliberately taken my comments out of context. i was taking about NATO. yes, both america and england are in nato, but i meant what about the other 20 something countries? autopilot;358313 Wrote: > And no, you are clearly calling me racist. You are saying my POV is > racist, so that makes me a racist by it's very definition. you can view it that way if you want, but i clearly said and will repeat, that i do NOT think you are a racist. i do however think your POV/argument that the arabs are not capable of democracy is a racist one, and i stand by it. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > What i said does not deserve such a flaming and abuse, there can't be > many more insulting things than that. Not only that, but you quote me > as saying things i did not say. I am sorry to have to respond in this > way, but i tried to avoid personal insults to fellow forum members. Its > a shame its happened, i would have been great to prove people wrong > about these things becoming flame wars. i have no interest is misrepresenting anything you said, i assure you. i encourage everyone to read what you said, and my responses, and judge on their own the meaning. no one should take my word for it, they should decide for themselves. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > Did anyone else reading this genuinely think i was being racist? again to be clear, i was saying that your argument, as you put it across earlier in the thread, struck me as a racist one. i want to be clear when i say YOU did NOT strike me as racist. btw, its not as if someone has to be a racist, simply b/c they make a racist argument. i think people can make mistakes, and i think thats what you've done, but i don't think a mistake defines your identity. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > I think most people will realise i did not say Most Arabs (Iraqi's, BTW > not Arabs - i have not used the term Arab once) are incapable of > Democracy, no mater how you try and twist it. I clearly said that it > was incompatible with the current religious and cultural climate - > which no amount military might wont be able to overcome. iraq is arab. here is what you said: > Thats a fundamental mistake the Bush (and British) administration made, > they totally misunderstood the culture and religious fabric of that > part of the world (and why the thought of Sarah Palin, who thinks > Africa is a country was so scary) OR it's an excuse to exercise more > power and influence (i suspect a bit of both). and > But it will never happen, we dont have the power anyway even if it was > possible. We will never bomb away thousands of years of deeply routed > religion and culture, democracy is beautiful but totally incompatible > with that part of the world. Any idea that we have restored some real > and long term democracy to Iraq is a complete illusion. As evil as > Saddam was, Iraq was a secular nation and we knew that. Now we have > opened the flood gates to even more religious madness. Not only is > Democracy futile, but long term it will be worse now. now, when you say "the culture and religious fabric" and "it will never happen" and "that part of the world" just what are you talking about? clearly democracy is in turkey and other islamic countries. it seems to me your beef is with arabs, and religion, and culture. to say it will "never happen" is incredibly elitest. i call that bias, and it strikes me as racist, or whatever "flavor" of prejudice you want to call it. i don't agree with you and your summary judgment that it isn't possible in "that part of the world." i don't think its impossible for any people, anywhere. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > i did not say there is anything wrong with them. But their religion has > far more influence than our military could ever dream off, and most > Clerics and fundamentalists want Sharia law instating (arguably one of > the few good things Saddam had going for him was that he created a > secular nation - less religion in politics means less internal > conflict). the problem is the facts don't agree. most iraqis WANT democracy, and know what it is, (something you claimed they don't, which also has overtones of bias). most do NOT want ONLY sharia law or wahabism. http://www.gallup.com/press/110524/Islam-Democracy.aspx at most, they merely want islam, sharia, etc... to be a source of inspiration for SOME legistlation. there is general agreement to NOT have religious leaders ALSO lead governments. the point s that while their democracy will clearly be different, it will still be democracy, and more importantly, a moderating influence. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > That added with many other factors such are pressure from Iran, Syria > etc, and a great distrust of the US/UK and the fact that Democracy is > not the average Iraq's first priory anyway (and, even given every > horrible acts he committed, many things were better under Saddam in > term of day to day life - a truth that is horrible to swallow i know) > means that i think long term it will fail. What is happening there now > is a puppet show and we will have to occupy and have a hand in the > government indefinably to keep the fake democracy going (and the Oil > flowing). Because as soon as we leave the Sunni Vs Shia civil war will > in escalate and the government will crumble in much less than a decade > - probably to a shadow Iran/Syrian sponsored government, which will be > worse than Saddam for all of us. amazing crystal ball you have. i have confidence it will succeed, and i base that off the good things happening there now. you know an election is coming jan 31st, yes? autopilot;358313 Wrote: > I dont even blame the US/UK for all of this post invasion insanity, Iran > needs to brought to justice to IMO for the supply weapons to insurgents, > thus taking advantage of this mess and trying to make is worse and > killing more of our troops. and your solution to the iran problm is what? stern talks? what has the EU done vis a vis iran in the past 5 years? it had the lead, what did it accomplish? autopilot;358313 Wrote: > As for me saying "they don't know what democracy is" - well they have > never experienced it, been able to study it as school or seen it on TV. > So how do they really know what's it's like to live under a democratic > government? thats not racist or patronising, thats just the way it is. > Mine and your governments have given them all the patronising they > could ever get anyway. i never lived under a parliament, but i know what one is. i never lived under a theocracy, but i know what one is. when i see millions of iraqis voting at great risk to themselves, i know that they know what it is. autopilot;358313 Wrote: > And is this is just about democracy and/or human rights now, why Iraq? > Why not north Korea, Saudi Arabia or China? Or maybe one of the many > African countries that are much much worse than Iraq was, they would be > far easier to invade too, why did we not help them? america did help korea, and has ever since. we also tried to help china, and lost that except for taiwan. we also did bosnia, your backyard. don't we do enough for you? we can not police the world indefintely, but iraq was a country where we had a convergence of many interests as well as circumstances, and it made sense to bush at the time, and i refuse to armchair quarterback the call. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 (primary) / SBR (secondary) / SBC - w/SC 7.3b - Win XP Pro SP3 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - D-Link DIR-655 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54678 _______________________________________________ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
