Larry and all,
Jaws and window eyes are the standard for windows but access is what
you want and access is what you get with a mac. It's different, but
it's access. There are places where window eyes and jaws won't go
and just because the Mac doesn't have all those fancy keystrokes,
doesn't mean that it cannot go where they can. There are sites which
are designed with windows in mind and you will find them difficult at
best and impossible at worse to deal with on the Mac. I'm not
certain that this is the case with this particular site, but I did
say we are in VO v1.0 right? Not only are we in VO 1.0, but safari
is also improving with each new itteration and sites which were not
accessible at all like bofa for instance, before, are now usable.
This is also due in part to work on the bank's part. I have not
found a site which if I cannot access it that I absolutely cannot
live without because there is always something else out there to go
to. Nonetheless, dropping a note to [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your
findings can't hurt.
The difference between the windows screen readers and the access we
have with vo is frills basically. I remember the days of dos, I
remember the days of windows 3.11, 95... The folk at apple designed
Tiger with accessibility right there in the mix along with everything
else. You are not being criticized at all for your stand or your
thoughts or what you write. I use jaws. I used jaws for many years
and even expressed my doubts about Mac accessibility before VO's
development was announced to the world but here I am using the Mac
for all of my tasks which do not absolutely require windows. I still
use windows when I don't have my Mac handy or when I am just sitting
near one. We've got three pcs here and only one Mac so far but that
is due to change soon. I'm not putting JAWS or window eyes down.
They are great products for windows which is why VO can be even
better. I did not get anywhere with Tiger till I laid jaws aside.
--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
On Dec 20, 2005, at 5:21 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
“First though, jaws is out. If you keep trying to hold jaws up as
your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but
you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there. There is a lot
you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more
complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as
access goes.”
Hi,
I appreciate that those of you using Mac by and large have a belief,
and rightfully so, that you are using a better computer than a
Windows box. However, you must understand that access to computer
applications and the web is just that, access. Be it a Mac or a PC,
that is a basic requirement for those of us who are vision impaired.
When it comes down to that issue, if your using a Mac or PC it just
doesn’t matter, you need access. Therefore, while Jaws runs on a PC
and VO on a Mac, comparisons as to how accessible things are are
rightful and that’s what it comes down to in the end. I don’t debate
the quality and idea that a Mac is better. However, like it or not,
Jaws and Window Eyes are the standard and benchmark for blind access
to the computer. So, I feel I’m right in comparing them. How does
weighing the accessibility I had with Jaws verses the accessibility I
have with VO cause problems and how is that going to trip me up.
Jaws gave me greater access than what I’m getting with VO. Now, I’m
learning about VO and maybe I get to a point where this isn’t an
issue but I strongly disagree with your suggestion here that
comparing the accessibility one achieves from one product or the
other is somehow problematic. If I’m entering the market for a
computer its probably near the top of the list for me if I’m blind.
I’ve got to be sure that I can access the applications that I need.
If I feel that Jaws gives me more access I may go that rout but I bet
most people when it comes down to it would admit that how accessible
the screen reader makes things is a huge part of the decision. I’d
like to be able to ask for help and info here without being
criticized because I compare my accessibility experiences. Its part
of it!!!
Thanks, Larry
From: David Poehlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2005/12/20 Tue PM 04:18:40 EST
To: General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS
X by the
blind <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: VO and web page access
Hi all,
The below message poses some interesting questions and I'll answer
them from the perspective that we are at vo v1.0.
First though, jaws is out. If you keep trying to hold jaws up as
your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but
you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there. There is a lot
you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more
complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as
access goes.
Your link has some issues that jaws and ie hide quite well and yes,
the issues are real and it looks like VO is at fault but for the fact
that it does quite a bit of the web well. One thing that can help is
to turn off cursor tracking with vokeys-shift-f3. You can also try
building links lists using vo keys with u and element lists with vo
keys-i. In these lists, you can cruise or type ahead. As you type,
the lists shorten and if your string is unique enough, you end up
with one link on which you press space and away you go. It gets
faster and easier with a bit of practice.
On your bofa site issue, I use it too and have not seen this issue.
I do see an issue where you type in an amount and have to wait a bit
to tab till the date field comes up but that is due to page
processing not VO. You can mittigate this to some degree by using vo
keys with arrows and going to the date field, selecting the date,
then typing the amount in the amount field. The orientation is
different, but it works well and becomes easy.
I don't do computer digital audio but I know there's been a good deal
of discussion of it on the list and perhaps if you sent three
messages, one for each topic, folk would find it easier to respond.
All the best.
--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:54 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
I just wanted to share some observations/concerns about VO
accessibility on the web that I've noticed in hopes that someone else
can check some of this out and see what they end up with.
My biggest concern when buying the Mac was in fact web access. I'm
on the web a lot so it was important to me. Unfortunately, I've
noticed a few issues. If you go over to www.ilounge.com, you will
find that it appears to be a page with frames. It has a top frame
with all kinds of links in it and then a great many links down the
left side of the page. Finally, there is a large frame in the middle
where text and news headlines are and finally a smaller frame with
advertisements over on the right. It appears to be somewhat a
complex page. When I was working with Jaws on the PC I could easily
move from one frame to the next on pages. Unfortunately, if I move
to interact with the HTML content and start moving with VO keys and
the arrows, it doesn't seem that I can make it out of the top frame
of the page. I think the last link I hear is RSS and then if I arrow
right or down again I hear nothing. After a second or two it jumps
down to the bottom of the page and reads the legal stuff like Apple
and iPod are property of Macintosh or whatever. Any ideas on how I
can improve my ability to interact with this page?
Second, I bank with Bank of America and do everything on
www.bankofamerica.com. For the most part I do all right with it.
However, two issues here. Once I'm logged in and using my account I
run in to some difficulties. One of them is that the site is
designed to be very user friendly for screen readers and contains
links that say skip to main content or to skip past this section.
The links you would be skipping run down the left side of the page
and are announcements, links to banking options and things like
that. I know, I'm about to reference back to Jaws again but its what
I knew and was most comfortable with. In Jaws I could click one of
these skip to links and jump on to the next section of the page.
However, nose such luck in VO. I'm unsure of what the problem is but
when I select one of these links nothing at all happens. The focus
doesn't move to the main content or even from that link. Any ideas?
The other difficulty I have with that same page is when I pay my
bills online. I get a page with all of my payees on it and can enter
amounts and the date to pay them. When I enter the amount to pay by
typing in to the appropriate field and go to leave the field, rather
than continuing on from that point, VO seems to go back to the first
link on the page. I'd rather have it keep going forward from that
very same spot and not need to start over at the top of the page.
I'm less than thrilled at navigation on the web with VO and this just
complicates things. Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
Finally, just curious if anyone uses a mail program that is simpler
than the one that comes as part of OSX.
Oh and I wonder if anyone has suggestions on a program to use to get
album art for all of my music. I have a massive music library and
have just enough vision to do some things in iTunes but all of the
CD's I've burned do not have album art.
Thanks.> > --
