someone tells me to go to something, I don't ask where I ask what and go there.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Harford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: DOM vs Grouped for Web Navigation (was) Re: any news I couldn't have stated it better myself. Oh if only I had a penny for everytime a sighted person thought I was an idiot for going through half of a page just to get to a link near the top. Regards Justin Harford Into this wild abyss, the weary fiend stood on the brink of hell and looked awhile, pondering his voyage John Milton Paradise Lost On Apr 14, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Jacob Schmude wrote: > Hi Josh > I'm using grouped mode, and have been ever since I discovered it a > few years ago in Tiger. I have also used DOM modes on both versions > of OS X. The reasons why I stay with group mode are: > 1. Grouped mode presents a relatively accurate (visually speaking) > representation of the over all layout of the page. This is important > to me, as I do some web dev work on and off, so I need to get an > approximate view of what exactly I've created or modified. Also, > this enables me to easily talk someone through the navigation of the > page, or the other way around. I can tell one of my friends, it's a > few links down, near the right hand side of the page, and that's > exactly where it is. I've always liked that Voiceover doesn't even > attempt to hide the visual aspects of the OS, much like Outspoken > did in OS 9 or under Windows. I find that having a visual layout > makes me more productive, not less, and I'm a totally blind user. > Also, this means that on sites I get familiar with or use > frequently, I can quickly jump to sections I wish, sections that > might not be bounded by headers and/or tables, or any other HTML tag > directly. > 2. Grouped navigation lets me read more of the page at once, rather > than having to press a directional key every few seconds. Also btw, > VO+a to read all works on groups, as well, and will reread the > current group, as it rereads the current item in DOM. > 3. Dom sometimes can seriously mess up the layout of the page--to > see what I mean try shopping at safeway.com. In DOM mode I get a > list of products, and the quantity edit boxes to fill in... but the > buy buttons are past all of those boxes down at the bottom. This is > not how the page is laid out visually, and grouped mode gives me an > accurate representation. The way that page looks, to give some > perspective, is it has the product you're buying, the price, any > special offer if applicable underneath the price, an edit field for > the quantity, and a buy button. Those are all arranged from left to > right, in a table structure though not coded in an HTML table. > Grouped navigation presents me that same layout, where as dom gives > me the product, an edit field, another product, an edit field... and > so on, then all the prices, then all the buy buttons. Needless to > say this isn't too much use. Also, wikipedia is another example, the > nav links aren't where they should be, in fact they're all the way > at the bottom of the page. > 4. Group navigation gives meaning to the four directions, up down > left and right. In Dom I might as well not even use the up and down > arrows, half the time they don't go anywhere, and the other half of > the time they go to the adjoining DOM element, and no further. This > may be exactly the behavior that is intended, but I find it doesn't > help me much. > I was never a fan of the nonvisual page rendering that Windows > screen readers adopted en masse once GW Micro perfected it. Indeed, > I used netscape for some years after and made window-eyes sets for > it until that became impractical when netscape 6 or 7 was launched. > I can't even count the number of times what I saw differed from what > my classmates saw--I was in middle school at the time--and it was > very frustrating when they'd say "it's right at the top there," when > for me it was maybe at the top, in the middle, or all the way at the > bottom... or somewhere in between. I learned to cope with it, but I > never really cared for it. So, basically, group navigation is close > to what I think should've stayed as the way of browsing the web in > any case, and it was a breath of fresh air when I discovered it, and > Voiceover too for that matter. There's no need to hide the visual > aspects from us... thank goodness Apple, like Alva with Outspoken > did, understands that. > There's my $0.02 on the matter... well maybe a little more than > $0.02. I'll stop rambling now :). > > > On Apr 14, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Josh de Lioncourt wrote: >> I totally disagree. DOM mode with VO has all the same problems >> that it does with Window-Eyes or Jaws. I've used both modes. DOM >> navigation requires more navigation, gives a less accurate >> representation of the page, and requires far more arrowing around. >> I suspect if you did a survey, you'd likely find that most users >> are using DOM mode, not Grouped, because it is so much like what >> they've become accustomed to in Windows. I'm sure you understand >> the concept behind grouped navigation, but I don't think you fully >> understand the best ways of utilizing it to your advantage while >> browsing. Everyone will have a different opinion why they like one >> over the other, but as a matter of sheer practicality, it is very >> difficult to make an argument that DOM mode is more efficient than >> grouped. >> >> I'd like to hear what others are using and why, and how many have >> actually learned to use Grouped mode in depth. >>> >
