Hi, group nav took me right there, but then I don't have a google
account signed in or any other crazy google features. My google page
has about 12 links total. Facebook was somewhat of a better test for
me. I had no idea what I was looking at, but I landed on the
information I wanted without too much trouble.
Best,
Erik
On 14-Apr-08, at 12:11 PM, Dennis Bartlett wrote:
HERE'S WHAT I'VE NOTICED SO FAR.
IN DOM MODE I GET RIGHT TO THE EDIT BOX IN GOOGLE, AND IN GROUP MODE
I HAVE TO FIND THE SEARCH BUTTON THEN SHIFT-TAB BACK TO THE EDIT BOX.
On 14-Apr-08, at 2:08 PM, David Poehlman wrote:
hmm, have to try safeway.
On Apr 14, 2008, at 1:43 PM, Jacob Schmude wrote:
Hi Josh
I'm using grouped mode, and have been ever since I discovered it a
few years ago in Tiger. I have also used DOM modes on both versions
of OS X. The reasons why I stay with group mode are:
1. Grouped mode presents a relatively accurate (visually speaking)
representation of the over all layout of the page. This is
important to me, as I do some web dev work on and off, so I need to
get an approximate view of what exactly I've created or modified.
Also, this enables me to easily talk someone through the navigation
of the page, or the other way around. I can tell one of my friends,
it's a few links down, near the right hand side of the page, and
that's exactly where it is. I've always liked that Voiceover
doesn't even attempt to hide the visual aspects of the OS, much
like Outspoken did in OS 9 or under Windows. I find that having a
visual layout makes me more productive, not less, and I'm a totally
blind user. Also, this means that on sites I get familiar with or
use frequently, I can quickly jump to sections I wish, sections
that might not be bounded by headers and/or tables, or any other
HTML tag directly.
2. Grouped navigation lets me read more of the page at once, rather
than having to press a directional key every few seconds. Also btw,
VO+a to read all works on groups, as well, and will reread the
current group, as it rereads the current item in DOM.
3. Dom sometimes can seriously mess up the layout of the page--to
see what I mean try shopping at safeway.com. In DOM mode I get a
list of products, and the quantity edit boxes to fill in... but the
buy buttons are past all of those boxes down at the bottom. This is
not how the page is laid out visually, and grouped mode gives me an
accurate representation. The way that page looks, to give some
perspective, is it has the product you're buying, the price, any
special offer if applicable underneath the price, an edit field for
the quantity, and a buy button. Those are all arranged from left to
right, in a table structure though not coded in an HTML table.
Grouped navigation presents me that same layout, where as dom gives
me the product, an edit field, another product, an edit field...
and so on, then all the prices, then all the buy buttons. Needless
to say this isn't too much use. Also, wikipedia is another example,
the nav links aren't where they should be, in fact they're all the
way at the bottom of the page.
4. Group navigation gives meaning to the four directions, up down
left and right. In Dom I might as well not even use the up and down
arrows, half the time they don't go anywhere, and the other half of
the time they go to the adjoining DOM element, and no further. This
may be exactly the behavior that is intended, but I find it doesn't
help me much.
I was never a fan of the nonvisual page rendering that Windows
screen readers adopted en masse once GW Micro perfected it. Indeed,
I used netscape for some years after and made window-eyes sets for
it until that became impractical when netscape 6 or 7 was launched.
I can't even count the number of times what I saw differed from
what my classmates saw--I was in middle school at the time--and it
was very frustrating when they'd say "it's right at the top there,"
when for me it was maybe at the top, in the middle, or all the way
at the bottom... or somewhere in between. I learned to cope with
it, but I never really cared for it. So, basically, group
navigation is close to what I think should've stayed as the way of
browsing the web in any case, and it was a breath of fresh air when
I discovered it, and Voiceover too for that matter. There's no need
to hide the visual aspects from us... thank goodness Apple, like
Alva with Outspoken did, understands that.
There's my $0.02 on the matter... well maybe a little more than
$0.02. I'll stop rambling now :).
On Apr 14, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Josh de Lioncourt wrote:
I totally disagree. DOM mode with VO has all the same problems
that it does with Window-Eyes or Jaws. I've used both modes. DOM
navigation requires more navigation, gives a less accurate
representation of the page, and requires far more arrowing
around. I suspect if you did a survey, you'd likely find that
most users are using DOM mode, not Grouped, because it is so much
like what they've become accustomed to in Windows. I'm sure you
understand the concept behind grouped navigation, but I don't
think you fully understand the best ways of utilizing it to your
advantage while browsing. Everyone will have a different opinion
why they like one over the other, but as a matter of sheer
practicality, it is very difficult to make an argument that DOM
mode is more efficient than grouped.
I'd like to hear what others are using and why, and how many have
actually learned to use Grouped mode in depth.
Dennis Bartlett
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
skype: dsbartlett
