On Monday, March 03, 2014 17:10:20 a l wrote: > Thanks Chris for listing some of the logic behind our infrastructure. I > think much of the frustration/confusion by the people who haven't built the > IT comes from not knowing the reasoning behind why things are the way they > are. I know there had been a short list of requirements before for what the > IT folk wanted in a service provider/site host service. > To the non-initiated some of it seemed like overkill and 'because we want > it' rather than absolute necessity or growth factor. > I know very little about IT infrastructure and would not end up maintaining > anything so I decided to leave it to people who were maintaining it. Ease > of use is occasionally worth the extra few bucks(to a point), and I > appreciate the fact that all of this is maintained in peoples free time. > > Torrie: No one is accusing you of purposefully mismanaging or overspending > SynHak funds. The concern(as far as I have heard/read) was simply that we > have been using AWS for quite some time so it was unlikely anyone had > surveyed the market for a better deal. Like I said, ease of use for > maintenance can be a deciding factor, as well as Chris's host of legal > complaints against certain providers but not everyone is aware of these > 'common knowledge facts'. Please consider this in your responses. > I agree we have had an increase in bureaucracy in recent months, we have > also had more traffic, more risk, and significantly more money than in the > previous year. Hackerspaces are new territory for everyone so finding the > balance will take some work by the community. There will always be a > certain amount of red tape in order to satisfy our grant backers, > insurers, and the revenuers, minimizing it is a noble goal. > I would question your statement about accusations of action in bad faith. > There have been heated disagreements about direction and the best way to > reach a goal, but I don't recall anyone accusing someone of sabotaging our > mission. > I also disagree that anyone is avoiding open conversation. We have 20 > members, it is inevitable that some will not be present for every > conversation. I myself have asked only a few people for their opinions > about things when not everyone is present but I don't see that as avoiding > open conversation.Am I mistaken in my belief? Is there some meeting at the > bar every Saturday going on that I don't know about? > > To all: > As I re-learned in my critique of build methods, if you don't provide an > alternative with your criticism people take it as an attack. I would > encourage everyone to be as constructive as possible in their criticism > when giving it, and to remember that the person critiquing is probably not > intending to attack you personally when you receive criticism.
This is the number one source of the tension at the space lately. I can remember a number of times during the buildout phase where I asked where something can fit and was immediately given a hostile response of "You can't put it in my space." as though I was intending on steamrolling them and undoing all of their contributions, nevermind the idea that there existed a thought of ownership of areas. I responded with "Ok, but thats not what I asked. I'm asking for suggestions." > > regards, > Andrew L > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Torrie Fischer <[email protected]>wrote: > > On Monday, March 03, 2014 14:16:14 Craig Bergdorf wrote: > > > Justin: linking to the collective via vpn has been on my todo list for 6 > > > months now. I'm waiting on a discussion on our ISP. Considering it's > > > available for little to none additional $/mo I would like to have native > > > ipv6 and a dedicated ip for outside vpn connections if for no other > > > > reason > > > > > than to not be teased by the other hackerspaces :) > > > > > > Torrie: > > > Way to much lately people ask for an opinion and if decent is spoken > > > > their > > > > > opinion is immediately dismissed as 'well your just wrong' or 'you just > > > have a problem with everything'. I can't count how many times you have > > > been on each side of these skirmishes lately. > > > > You're completely right. I've been a total bitch about quite a few things. > > I > > will make no attempt to excuse my behavior, except that I may have > > differing > > opinions about the difference between being excellent and railing against > > pressure points that others have described to me. > > > > > imo: Synhak is not a rock, it is a plyable and ever growing entity > > > moving > > > from the combined will of its members, supporters, and anyone else who > > > wants to contribute. When that majority changes flavors, by design, > > > > SynHak > > > > > changes with it. It must sting to not be in the majority on all issue > > > anymore, and I can't fathom how it must feel to see your baby grow up to > > > > be > > > > > a lawyer, but how is anyone qualified to say "you dont get the culture". > > > > > > The culture is what is experienced by everyone while at this > > > hackerspace > > > > > > as it exists today, a culture we all contribute whatever we feel is of > > > value to. Are you proud to contribute yet another attack on a respected > > > part of this culture? One who has bit tounge to gather consensus, and > > > never acted with motives other than to continue moving the space forward > > > after so many times others have "pulled this space over right now" > > > > If the something changes to become something I'm not happy with, I either > > change it or I give up and start something new. > > > > There was no culture of hackers here in Akron. Then there was, briefly, > > for > > about a year. Now it is being eaten away in favor of executive statements, > > pre-emptive rules that restrict harmless activities, participation > > metrics, > > avoidance of open discussion, and assuming that others are acting in bad > > faith. > > > > > I was not a sponsor of him, but I would be proud if I had. *If you > > > don't > > > want a discussion don't ask for one.* Perhaps, as you suggest, you > > > should > > > be a lot more careful in the future. I feel i should bath my laptop > > > > after > > > > > seeing such unwarranted unprovoked nastiness. > > > > I wanted a discussion with facts. I got opinionated bikeshedding and > > evidence- > > less speculation about why I might be wrong. > > > > > /imo > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Torrie Fischer > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > On Monday, March 03, 2014 13:24:14 Justin Herman wrote: > > > > > SynHak.org needs to be multiple things. A "playground" maybe should > > > > not > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > what we use it for. I don't use the plumbing or electric as a > > > > > > > > "playground" > > > > > > > > > they are infrastructure. They are constructs. > > > > > > > > Oh ok. I'll stop listening then if thats what you think about SYNHAK. > > > > No > > > > > > sense > > > > in beating my head against a brick wall any more. You simply don't get > > > > the > > > > > > culture. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure who sponsored your membership, but if it was me, I'm > > > > regretting > > > > it. I'll be sure to be a lot more careful in the future. > > > > > > > > > Instead of asking why AWS is the best, I should have asked what are > > > > the > > > > > > > goals? > > > > > > > > > > As far as physical security it had been discussed (for the build > > > > working > > > > > > > group) that security be put in place around the primary > > > > infrastructure. > > > > > > You > > > > > > > > > mention a javelin and/or beer but what stops someone from doing that > > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > now to some of our other precious items (3d printer)? Members. We > > > > > vet > > > > > our > > > > > members though our membership process. Non of our members have > > > > malicious > > > > > > > intentions. If they do we have processes in place to remove them. > > > > And if > > > > > > > something catastrophic happens what risk are we at? What could not > > > > > be > > > > > backed up and re-implemented? Implementing backup procedures would > > > > > be > > > > > important. We all have tolerated outages in the past. A few days of > > > > > > > > outage > > > > > > > > > for our wiki or spiff is that worth 4 months as a member? We could > > > > > > > > offsite > > > > > > > > > host a semi static page for little to no cost. If 48 summit goes > > > > > off-line > > > > > no guests would be the wiser. > > > > > > > > > > With regards to migration I suggest virtualization. Pick your > > > > > flavor: > > > > > Proxmox, Hyper-v, ZEN, ESXi. (I can donate a essentials plus license > > > > for > > > > > > > ESXi if needed) or something else. Then rebuild using git. > > > > > > > > > > I don't love TWC but I see this as turning point. A time to > > > > re-evaluate. > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Torrie Fischer > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > On Monday, March 03, 2014 12:32:48 Justin Herman wrote: > > > > > > > As far as reimbursement and membership credit I have submitted > > > > them. > > > > > > > > *nod* > > > > > > > > > > > > Its in my backlog. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Justin Herman < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > My question is why no other options viable for hosting? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why MUST we use AWS? Why do we need 99.99 availability for 6 > > > > > > > > servers? > > > > > > > > > > Why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could we not hybrid the design (like Craig said) and use some > > > > > > > > local > > > > > > > > hosting > > > > > > > > and some AWS? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardware is cheap and easy to come by. Hosting our own allows > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > have a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TON more CPU and RAM and storage. It something like > > > > > > > > > > > > spiff/wiki/fileserver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > due to hardware failure, upgrade needs, network connection... > > > > we > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > > always but a static page for our contact info so it doesn't > > > > seem > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fell off the face of the internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to have a class on AWS by all means fire up a demo > > > > > > > > site. > > > > > > > > > > > > That > > > > > > > > > > > > > > has nothing to do with our production infrastructure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know we all want more internet and lots of people SAY TWC is > > > > > > > > > > > > unreliable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but I haven't seen anything saying HOW unreliable at the 48 > > > > Summit > > > > > > > > space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is. Are we down or frequent outages? Not getting promised > > > > service > > > > > > > > > > <BW>? > > > > > > > > Excessive packet loss? Are we taking metrics? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And if TWC is that bad WHY was it chosen to use them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Craig Bergdorf < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> or, if it's $200 and you know for a fact the space needs it > > > > right > > > > > > > > > >> now, > > > > > > > >> just grudgingly buy it and hold mild anger towards those that > > > > > > > > said it > > > > > > > > > > > >> wasn't needed (sorry, in a mood). Unless (crosses fingers) > > > > this > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > meant > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> as a way to test a new, functional system for the space > > > > approving > > > > > > > > > >> purchases, if so: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Is there a budget for the space that includes consumables > > > > > > > >> like > > > > > > > > toilet > > > > > > > > > > > >> paper that any member is allowed to see / comment on? What > > > > > > > > > > > > percentage of > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the remainder of that does this $200 represent? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> As I mentioned before, I think this is a great idea, and the > > > > > > > >> lower > > > > > > > > > > > > price > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> tag just makes it better. I also have mentioned we should be > > > > > > > > paying > > > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> for internet so we can supplement our real host with some old > > > > > > > > > > > > fashioned > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> house file servers (and a webcam/open sign/phone that doesn't > > > > > > > > require > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> much maintenance). > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> If a call for comments is up, my only concern is one of not > > > > > > > > knowing > > > > > > > > > > > >> if > > > > > > > >> the amount we have for monthly improvements has included all > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> consumables I would think higher priority (such as toilet > > > > paper). > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > am > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> also surprised that there is a penny left in this fund after > > > > > > > >> 2 > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> building. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Torrie Fischer < > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On Monday, March 03, 2014 11:35:51 Justin Herman wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > I agree with Andrew, > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > I hold several concerns about this proposal and think we > > > > need > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > >>> evaluate > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > the needs of the infrastructure. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> If you've got "several concerns", what are those concerns? I > > > > too > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > >>> claim to > > > > > > > >>> be "concerned" about something and not actually say why. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Instead of doing any useful synhak work today or tomorrow, > > > > I'll > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > >>> producing a > > > > > > > >>> technical report that shows why this investment will benefit > > > > the > > > > > > > > hacker > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> community we aim to support. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Andrew Buczko > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > > WAT? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > first you said it was $1.60 > > > > > > > >>> > > Then $16.40 > > > > > > > >>> > > Now it's $123.10 > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > ? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Torrie Fischer > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > >> Previous thread: > > > > https://synhak.org/pipermail/discuss/2014-February/003393.html > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> I'd like to propose that we spend $200 to reserve the > > > > two > > > > > > > > t1.micro > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> instances > > > > > > > >>> > >> in that proposal for the purpose of web servers. > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> Our current AWS expenditure is still ~$80/mo. Spending > > > > $200 > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > > > > >>> front will > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > >> reduce that bill by $16.40/mo and keep our > > > > infrastructure > > > > > > > > expenses > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> low > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > >> for the > > > > > > > >>> > >> next three years. Thats an extra $16.40 we can invest > > > > > > > > elsewhere > > > > > > > > > > > >>> with a > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > >> break > > > > > > > >>> > >> even point of 12 months. > > > > > > > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >>> > >> Discuss mailing list > > > > > > > >>> > >> [email protected] > > > > > > > >>> > >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >>> > > Discuss mailing list > > > > > > > >>> > > [email protected] > > > > > > > >>> > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >>> Discuss mailing list > > > > > > > >>> [email protected] > > > > > > > >>> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> Discuss mailing list > > > > > > > >> [email protected] > > > > > > > >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Discuss mailing list > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Discuss mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Discuss mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
