Aymeric,
I'm afraid I don't understand your protest about my reply to you. You
very clearly took a position that the policy was effective because of how
rarely it has had to have been invoked. You didn't make any case whatsoever
to justify your belief that this was a causation relationship - in fact
there is no evidence to support this, and you neglected to consider the
dangers of a policy that enumerates banned speech and actions, which I have
provided evidence to support a concern. Your message was a direct reply to
mine, contrary to my argument, and so I replied. This is not painting you
as clueless (at least not my language, anyway) but simply replying to the
point you made.
Next you then make the personal judgement, again without any basis, that
I am irrational and not reading what other people have written on this
topic. Well I reject that completely. Not only have I read every posting on
this topic carefully, you'll see I've also researched the history of both
django group archives and scoured the internet for information supporting
both sides of this debate. Your reply, however, seems to suggest you really
haven't bothered to read the concerns about a speech code that I have
posted because it, as do almost all the other replies, completely ignores
these concerns despite actual evidence supporting them. I suggest you
follow your own advice.
-- Ben
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 3:02 AM, Aymeric Augustin <
aymeric.augus...@polytechnique.org> wrote:
> Benjamin,
>
> Please read my email again. I did not take a side in the debate.
>
> I didn’t say anything about the two PRs or your arguments.
>
> I didn’t support your position but I didn’t reject it either.
>
> Please realize that your answer expresses prejudice about my beliefs and
> that it paints me as a clueless person for no good reason. It attempts to
> force me to pick a side, and rather aggressively, while I’m not ready to do
> so in public.
>
> Please consider that I’m unfamiliar with the American cultural standards
> that underlie this entire debate and uncomfortable with participating as a
> non-native speaker, as the topic is too sensitive to allow for
> approximative vocabulary.
>
> That said, may I suggest kindly that you cool down a bit and read what
> others write?
>
> --
> Aymeric.
>
>
>
> On 9 sept. 2014, at 21:28, Benjamin Scherrey <proteus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Aymeric,
>
> You don't believe that one should also consider how it is used? I have
> already documented that the single ever documented threatened use of the
> existing code of conduct was not to protect anyone from harassment but, in
> fact, was used to stifle someone's thoughtful and reasoned argument and end
> debate on a point. Exactly the kind of thing that I commonly see in the
> rest of the world where such speech and conduct codes are applied. They
> inevitably lead to this and I find that coercive and destructive. Evil in
> the name of good is twice as evil.
>
> I will also note that I have made several direct assertions about the
> positive aspects and negative aspects of certain policies. The sudden
> influx of people speaking in support for a speech and conduct code that
> enumerates forbidden activities have all chosen not to respond to any of
> these assertions with reasoned arguments or provide any assertions of their
> own backed up by evidence. None. Zero. I think that speaks very much
> towards the quality of their arguments and the resulting policies if their
> preferences are chosen. Sadly, I also anticipated this when I replied to
> Kevin's latest post asking for those who supported the speech code to
> respond to my concerns directly because the usual tactic by people wishing
> to impose such things is to argue around the subject rather than address
> the real documented problems with it. Alex gets partial credit for at least
> giving some specific support (the Ada group's recommendation) for why he
> wants it but no one has bothered to address the clear and present
> documented dangers of such a thing as I have argued.
>
> Again, getting back to the subject of the two PRs, 84 is fine but 86
> is way out of line because you've then imposed a speech and conduct code on
> the entire universe without any context of having anything to do with
> Django. Nothing good can come of this.
>
> -- Ben
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:12 AM, Aymeric Augustin <
> aymeric.augus...@polytechnique.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9 sept. 2014, at 19:54, Benjamin Scherrey <proteus...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > So far we have exactly one documented example and TPTB took it
>> seriously right away. To me, this hardly justifies any need for an explicit
>> "anti-harassment" policy.
>>
>> I believe the success of the code of conduct is measured by how rarely it
>> is needed.
>>
>> If it never needs to be brought up, then it has achieved its goal.
>>
>> So thanks for confirming that it works well :-)
>>
>> --
>> Aymeric.
>>
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>
>
>
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