Kevin,
> It simply says, in deliberately vague language, that if a member of the
Django community is treated abusively by another member of the Django
community _outside_ a Django forum and that abuse is reported to the
conduct committee, the committee will not reject the report outright simply
on the basis of where the alleged abuse occurred
Perhaps the wording could then be closer to the intent. Something like "if
a member of the Django community is treated abusively by another member of
the Django community outside of a Django forum, and is reported, it will
warrant investigation and may result in action". I think that language is
more precise, and gets around the problems stated by Ben. If there is
agreement, I'll be happy to open a PR against #86.
> I expect you to quickly find problems with everything I've said.
I don't think this is particularly fair. Ben has been very vocal (and
mostly solo), but he has been quite respectful to the people he is
discussing the topic with.
Regards,
Josh
On Thursday, 11 September 2014 00:11:54 UTC+10, Kevin Daum wrote:
>
> Benjamin (and all others still paying attention),
>
> I love the Django code of conduct. It's not perfect but it's quite good.
> How does a person who claims one or even many historically marginalized
> identities know that the Django community is a safe place for them without
> a published and enforced code of conduct? It can be scary enough to enter
> into a field as white- (at least here in the U.S.) and male-dominated as
> software development even with a code. Without one, you have no guarantee
> that _safety_ is going to be given a higher priority than making sure those
> with power and privilege have the freedom to say whatever they want,
> whenever they want.
>
> I'm glad that you're staff is comprised of 40% women. That is truly
> something to be applauded. It's something I have never been able to achieve
> myself and I'd be interested in hearing (elsewhere, not in this thread) how
> you were able to do that. I hope that those women feel safe in their
> working environment. I hope that when harassment does occur (let's be
> honest, it's a matter of when, not if), they are not burdened with both the
> pain of what they've experienced _and_ the difficulty of having to figure
> out to whom to report it and how. I hope their complaints will be taken
> seriously.
>
> You want people to address your warning against unintended consequences.
> Here goes. I think you're exaggerating this risk. We are not trying to
> enforce an anti-social behavior code on the entire universe for all time.
> What #86 does, as I noted in the commit message, is make an already
> implicit policy explicit. It simply says, in deliberately vague language,
> that if a member of the Django community is treated abusively by another
> member of the Django community _outside_ a Django forum and that abuse is
> reported to the conduct committee, the committee will not reject the report
> outright simply on the basis of where the alleged abuse occurred. The
> committee will take the report seriously and _may_ choose to act upon it.
> As Daniele said early in this discussion, the language and the intent
> provide plenty of room for a measured and proportionate response, which
> may, as has been said, be no response.
>
> You want people to address your conviction that affirmative language is
> better. Here goes. I agree with you that affirmative language is most
> helpful. It's certainly much more enjoyable to read and discuss since it
> reflects the positive vision of where we _want_ to be. On the other hand I
> also agree with the Ada initiative and others in this thread that the list
> of don'ts is also necessary, for the reasons that have already been stated
> ("I'm not touching you," rule lawyering, etc.). As wonderful and socially
> advanced as you think the Django community is, surely even you can agree
> that we cannot control who will be entering the community in the future. In
> fact, that's what we all want, right? We want a community open to all. Some
> of those people entering the community in the future _may_ need the don'ts
> spelled out for them. It may not be their fault, either. They may simply
> have never had helpful and constructive relationships with people very
> different from themselves modeled for them.
>
> Or consider presenters. Humor is an excellent method of holding an
> audience's attention. It's handy for a presenter to have a published CoC so
> they know which jokes are appropriate in this community and which to avoid.
> Heck, _I_ need the CoC for that.
>
> Ultimately what this comes down to is that those of use with power and
> privilege are going to have to give some of that up in order to share it
> with those who haven't historically had it. Just one example of this
> playing out in practice is giving up some of my right to free speech in
> order to ensure that others feel welcome. For me, this looks like spending
> time reflecting on the words I use and how they affect people very
> different than myself _and then changing my words_. Since that takes a lot
> of effort, I won't always be doing it; therefore I expect to be called out
> on using oppressive language, knowing I will be unlearning my conscious and
> unconscious prejudices all my life. I hope to respond to such corrections
> in a way that encourages folks to keep being honest about how they
> experience the community. This is the cost of creating and maintaining an
> inclusive community.
>
> I do not think need we need detailed records of reported abuse in order to
> justify this change. Even if zero abuse has ever happened in the Django
> community (which we all know not to be true, since we are humans and we're
> _all_ jerks sometimes), it's my position that this change is still valid
> and important. Why should we wait for something horrible to happen in order
> to put _the ability_ to offer protections in place? And, let's remember,
> the change is simply making explicit what is already policy. It's important
> to make it explicit because someone may not have known that they could
> report abuse that occurred elsewhere. Perhaps they've been avoiding Django
> gatherings because of abuse they've experienced; this might provide a way
> back for them.
>
> There. I have attempted to address the complaints you most consistently
> bring up and accuse us of not addressing directly. I expect you to quickly
> find problems with everything I've said. That's fine, but I'll say now that
> I may not respond. This discussion has taken a lot of time to follow and
> has been mentally and emotionally exhausting. I have a busy week and this
> may not fit into it anymore. What I don't expect is for you to submit a
> pull request offering the affirmative, positive reworking of the CoC that
> you have proposed, so you have an opportunity to surprise me there.
> Regardless, your criticism has provided me with the opportunity to more
> thoroughly think through and explain my rationale behind this change. For
> that I thank you.
>
> Kevin
>
> On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:29:25 PM UTC-4, Benjamin Scherrey wrote:
>>
>> Aymeric,
>>
>> You don't believe that one should also consider how it is used? I
>> have already documented that the single ever documented threatened use of
>> the existing code of conduct was not to protect anyone from harassment but,
>> in fact, was used to stifle someone's thoughtful and reasoned argument and
>> end debate on a point. Exactly the kind of thing that I commonly see in the
>> rest of the world where such speech and conduct codes are applied. They
>> inevitably lead to this and I find that coercive and destructive. Evil in
>> the name of good is twice as evil.
>>
>> I will also note that I have made several direct assertions about the
>> positive aspects and negative aspects of certain policies. The sudden
>> influx of people speaking in support for a speech and conduct code that
>> enumerates forbidden activities have all chosen not to respond to any of
>> these assertions with reasoned arguments or provide any assertions of their
>> own backed up by evidence. None. Zero. I think that speaks very much
>> towards the quality of their arguments and the resulting policies if their
>> preferences are chosen. Sadly, I also anticipated this when I replied to
>> Kevin's latest post asking for those who supported the speech code to
>> respond to my concerns directly because the usual tactic by people wishing
>> to impose such things is to argue around the subject rather than address
>> the real documented problems with it. Alex gets partial credit for at least
>> giving some specific support (the Ada group's recommendation) for why he
>> wants it but no one has bothered to address the clear and present
>> documented dangers of such a thing as I have argued.
>>
>> Again, getting back to the subject of the two PRs, 84 is fine but 86
>> is way out of line because you've then imposed a speech and conduct code on
>> the entire universe without any context of having anything to do with
>> Django. Nothing good can come of this.
>>
>> -- Ben
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:12 AM, Aymeric Augustin <
>> aymeric....@polytechnique.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 sept. 2014, at 19:54, Benjamin Scherrey <prote...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > So far we have exactly one documented example and TPTB took it
>>> seriously right away. To me, this hardly justifies any need for an explicit
>>> "anti-harassment" policy.
>>>
>>> I believe the success of the code of conduct is measured by how rarely
>>> it is needed.
>>>
>>> If it never needs to be brought up, then it has achieved its goal.
>>>
>>> So thanks for confirming that it works well :-)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Aymeric.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies <http://proteus-tech.com>
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>>
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