Andres: 1. ...i think i really do "hear" what you are saying, and i "get"
that the advantages afforded to professional females (including females in
research science careers) in some countries are beneficial to them and
their families...
2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research,
equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you
cite equivalent to what would be required to achieve "senior" (i;e.,
professorship [+]) status in the US...
5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions are;
however, i suspect the answers are "no"...
6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative research is
acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA where, it seems
to me, females who rely on collaboration are often/usually perceived as
"hitch(h)iking" on a senior person's research projects...though this
strategy may, indeed, purchase senior status in the USA, it often does not
translate to reputation or respect (indeed, there are exceptions)...
7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i think
i "hear" females saying that they're not competing for the sorts of
positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put it,
after a baby came her "priorities changed"...again, so be it...SORT OF...
8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA females
changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made other
commitments under the guise that they want to be senior scientists *as
defined in USA*...
9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate
students, post-docs, etc. are "grown-ups" capable of making their own
"rational" decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to assume
responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the realities of USA
science that they signed up for*...
10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their
commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED,
SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to accomplish
the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
12. ...some females& minorities assert that the structure of USA science
needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the
best and most successful scientists in the world...
14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that "RATIONAL" grown-ups of
whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this
system& need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by not
changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcre<[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
professional life
To: [email protected]
Andres, do you have any ideas about how we can import that Finlandian model
to the U.S.? And how to get more universities and other employers in the
U.S. to recognize the need to provide for professional couples? Thanks,
David
Ufff... this discussion may become more political than ecological... the
problem, as I see it is more fundamental. How willing are we to pay higher
and more progressive taxes, socialize higher education (and health care),
punish job instability, remove undergraduate and graduate student fees (in
fact, undergraduates are paid in Finland!!) or increase graduate
student/post-doc salaries and benefits at the cost of reducing those of
professors...?
---- Andres Lopez-Sepulcre<[email protected]> wrote:
In my experience, it all depends on the country and how easy funding
agencies, research institutions and governments make it. I have
experience in several countries: Spain, USA, France and Finland. They
each have their good and bad points on that respect. Fore example,
while the USA and Canada tend to be pretty good at opening jobs for
couples, which helps enormously the two-body problem, I find that some
European countries offer better conditions to be a parent. For
example, in Finland and Sweden the government offers paid maternity
and/or paternity leaves of at least 10 months. Since this is a
'stipend' independent of the scientific fellowship or contract, it
essentially means that if they had 3-years of funding, they now will
have that + 10 months (i.e. the grant or contract 'slides' forward).
Moreover, there are good free or cheap daycare services and even
sometimes, daycare or family-housing in field stations. The conditions
are so good that I have never seen such a high rate of graduate
students pregnant or with children as in those countries... and they
are consequentially doing better than average at keeping women in
science. Of course, many countries (like Spain, my home-country) fail
in all aspects.
Andres Lopez-Sepulcre
Laboratoire d'Ecologie, UMR 7625
Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
[email protected]
http://web.me.com/asepulcre
On Apr 11, 2012, at 5:54 PM, Rachel Guy wrote:
I've been following the debate Simone Whitecloud inspired concerning
babies in the field. This brought to mind something I was told when
I was pursuing my B.S. in Wildlife Ecology:
"You can be a scientist, a spouse or a parent. Two of these things
you can be simultaneously great at doing, while the third will
suffer." I'm not sure I entirely agree with this statement, but I
have seen personal relationships tried by professional obligations
and professional obligations tried by personal obligations.
Particularly in a field that often demands long absences and
irregular hours, I can see how this would particularly be true.
Though, I have also seen faculty and research scientists with
families that seem pretty stable and happy. Is there any substance
to this paradigm, and if so, are there realistic ways in which we
can change them? I'd love to hear the communities' thoughts on this
as it is something that I have often reflected on as I've progressed
through my career. Can we have it all? What are the key differences
between the ones that are seemingly able to do it and the one's
where the challenges become too great?
Rachel Guy
Project Coordinator, Research Assistant
--
David McNeely
--
clara b. jones
