I must say that I find this conversation somewhat embarrassing, and hope it never gets out into the public domain. I have and have always had friends and neighbours who work 2 or 3 jobs to keep things going. Literally going to work at 6AM and not coming home till after 10PM working jobs at places like Walmart and McDonalds. Lots of people work 8+ hours per say 50 weeks a year, like say my Dad, and had no problem raising a family and contributing to the community. This whole thing is a study in extreme narcissism. How's that for a wet blanket!
Robert Hamilton, PhD Professor of Biology Alice Lloyd College Pippa Passes, KY 41844 -----Original Message----- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jahi Chappell Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 10:07 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life While putting resources into science, including ecology, is of course a wonderful, necessary, and valuable thing, assuredly supporting our own families with our presence, time, and energy (and societal resources) is at least as wonderful, necessary, and valuable. Indeed, as many benefits as flow from science and science funding, we know that having strong families and communities makes everyone better off, ceteris parabus, and having strong families and communities requires time and resource investment from everyone. Even granting the proposition that we in the US produce the "best and most successful scientists in the world", all accounts indicate that we certainly don't produce the highest average of "happy and most secure and successful families in the world." We have a *lot* of those, but alas, our median is likely much lower than our mean, and both are likely behind countries like those Andres analyzed. So much of what so many are lacking are basic needs, connections, support networks, and resources, something depending as much or more on good and participatory governance than new scientific discovery--we need more time for more participation outside our work and research, not less. On 4/27/12 10:22 AM, "David L. McNeely" <mcnee...@cox.net> wrote: This is not meant as a wet blanket, as I encourage family friendly employment practices for all countries and for all occupations. But, I wonder how those figures would look if all areas of science were considered? It may be that smaller economies, and the Scandinavian countries in particular, put a greater fraction of their available resources for scientific research into ecology than do larger economies and non-Scandinavian countries. Is U.S. science more diversified than Finnish or Icelandic science? David McNeely ---- Andres Lopez-Sepulcre <lopezsepul...@gmail.com> wrote: Since we're at it, it did the same calculation for all four countries ranked first in gender equality by the Global Gender Gap Report. All four, as far as I remember, provide generous paternity leaves that guarantee job security and can be shared between mother and father. ISI indexed publications in Ecology per capita (countries ranked in order of 'gender equality index') Iceland: 1167 Norway: 1794 Finland: 1500 Sweden: 1361 Not only do these countries do significantly better in ecology 'per capita' than the less family-oriented scientific powerhouses (e.g. USA: 650, UK: 660), but it almost seems that if anything, their ranking in the gender equality index is correlated with their productivity, not an 'impediment' ... safe for Iceland, but do remember that Iceland suffered the largest financial collapse in world history in these last 5 years. Even when this small sample and oversimplified analysis is not proof of anything, I hope it can change peoples' perceptions that countries that have increased social welfare, gender equality and more protective labour laws are less productive. Andres Lopez-Sepulcre Laboratoire d'Ecologie, UMR 7625 Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris alo...@biologie.ens.fr http://web.me.com/asepulcre On Apr 27, 2012, at 6:43 PM, Cecilia Hennessy wrote: PERFECT response, thank you so much! If we Americans could stop patting ourselves on the back long enough to realize that other countries have successful ways of doing things too, maybe we could learn from international example and progress more efficiently. cheers! On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Andres Lopez-Sepulcre <lopezsepul...@gmail.com > wrote: "...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the best and most successful scientists in the world..." I would simply like to add a quick clarification. I struggled with how to respond to this US-centric statement. There is no doubt that the USA is a scientific powerhouse and I have wonderful things to say about my experience as a scientist there, which has brought me wonderful collaborations I hope last long. However I am not sure it is fair to compare a country of over 300 million inhabitants with another of 5 (Finland). In fact, I took the liberty do do a quick search in Web of Science for articles in the area of 'Environmental Sciences and Ecology' for both countries in the last 5 years. USA showed 204,414 in front of 8,119 Finnish articles indexed in ISI. If one thinks 'per capita', the USA has produced 650 indexed articles in ecology per million inhabitants, while Finland has produced 1,500. With this I do not mean to say that Finland is better or worse... but just to show that, when the comparison is done 'fairly', maternity leaves do not seem to be hampering Finnish ecology. Productivity can be achieved without equality and social welfare suffering. Andres Lopez-Sepulcre Laboratoire d'Ecologie, UMR 7625 Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris alo...@biologie.ens.fr http://web.me.com/asepulcre On Apr 12, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Amanda Quillen wrote: "...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the best and most successful scientists in the world..." -- Cecilia A. Hennessy PhD Candidate Purdue University 715 W. State St Pfendler Hall, G004 West Lafayette, IN 47907-2061 lab: 765-496-6868 cell: 574-808-9696 -- David McNeely -- M. Jahi Chappell, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Environmental Science and Justice School of the Environment Faculty Affiliate, Center for Social and Environmental Justice Faculty Affiliate, Program in Public Affairs Washington State University Vancouver Vancouver, WA 98686 Tel: (360) 546-9413 Fax: (360) 546-9064 Faculty Page: http://directory.vancouver.wsu.edu/people/michael-chappell Chappell Lab: http://agroecopeople.wordpress.com/ Email: m.jahi.chapp...@vancouver.wsu.edu