Hi Jon- I can certainly grant the premise that aspects of LEED certification, organic certification, etc. are beyond the financial grasp of many. These topics, however, have not much to do with permaculture. Many of the best permaculture sites are located in developing countries, often times using hand-only techniques. In addition, many of the resources I offered below are freely available. Perhaps you could clarify parts you think could be improved?
Second, I am not convinced the accusation that permaculture ideas are stolen from "good work" is valid. Scientists that publish primary research are almost certainly paid for it, and they published with the knowledge (dare I say hope) that others would use what they have learned. I think there needs to be a distinction between dissemination of research results to the public and 'stealing' original work; that doesn't seem to be in your argument. Finally, I am not sure that LEED certs not living up to the claim of saving threatened or endangered species has any bearing on permaculture as an effective food production system. There is a growing body of evidence and research being done on the effectiveness of permaculture (see http://robscott.net/upp/ for just one example), and red herring arguments about other sustainable frameworks are inappropriate. I do agree others should do research on their own to decide; my post was mainly to post a counter-argument to the "no specifics, lots of money" post and to offer some resources for readers to decide on their own. Kevin Burls On Jan 10, 2013, at 11:38 AM, jon mccloskey wrote: Kevin et al. This is classic conservation and control thesis/argument. Ideas like permaculture, "organic" food, the eco-boost engine, ridiculous "green" laws, LEED, etc. all hurt or are not available to low income families. Thus, they are not a solution because they are not affordable to most people. So, if you do the math, unless the majority of people are on board (and they won't be unless you make it affordable) then it is simply exploitation. Another problem is that the ideas expressed and sold are essentially stolen from others (e.g., scientists who publish good work) who worked hard to provide knowledge to society and policy makers...not for elites with money to make more money. Also, if you look at the evidence these ideas do not do what they claim. This has been shown again and again by studies on LEED certified buildings and schools as well as wildlife preserves that were designed supposedly to save T&E species. I urge you all to look at the real evidence, do the math, and ignore the propaganda on both sides. Jon McCloskey, Ph.D. > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:37:37 +0000 > From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Permaculture mysteries Re: [ECOLOG-L] [Be the Change] > Sustainability, Permaculture and Leadership > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > Wayne (and ecolog): > There are a couple starting references that might be of interest to you > regarding foundations and specific techniques of permaculture. > > Mollison, Bill. 1988. Permaculture: A Designer's Manual. Australia: Tagari > Publications. > > Hemenway, Toby. 2000. Gaia's garden: A guide to home-scale permaculture. > Vermont: Chelsea Green Publishing. > > Many more are available here: > http://www.permaculture-media-download.com/2011/11/best-permaculture-homesteading-books.html > > These books go into great detail about the foundations of permaculture, which > uses patterning principles from systems ecology, and concepts like niches, > succession and nutrient cycling from ecology. They also describe most of the > commonly used techniques in permaculture, including things like rainwater > harvesting and water retention on the landscape, guild polyculture planting, > and earthworks to retain moisture and soil fertility. These techniques are by > no means secret, trademarked, or costly; many of the techniques can be found > for free online, in places like www.permies.com<http://www.permies.com>, > www.oasisdesign.net<http://www.oasisdesign.net> (see this section on > greywater: http://www.oasisdesign.net/greywater/misinfo/index.htm), > permaculture.org.au<http://permaculture.org.au> (see this section on swales > as a water-retention technique: > http://permaculture.org.au/2010/12/15/a-guide-to-back-flood-swales/), or > www.appropedia.org<http://www.appropedia.org>, which has a wealth of > information on a huge array of topics. > > A quick note on permaculture: there seems to be some confusion about > permaculture being a branch of ecology. It is not, nor has it claimed to be. > Permaculture is an applied discipline focusing on sustainable food production > and site design by using ecological principles, using theory (but not > creating it) from ecology, evolution, hydrology, physics, and conventional > agricultural science. To want permaculture to be a theoretical discipline is > to ask for something it can't deliver, nor is it supposed to. > > Finally, a note on monetary value: I can appreciate skepticism regarding > paying random people to tell you things you could find in a book, or that > might even be misguided or untrue. However, asking for payment for a > week-long class that provides food and lodging is hardly suspicous. Nor is it > commonplace for 'real,' academic information to be given away for free. I > don't necessarily need to list examples, but I will: > > --academic textbooks (this great pollination ecology book is cheap at $50: > http://www.amazon.com/Pollination-Floral-Ecology-Pat-Willmer/dp/0691128618/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1357842276&sr=8-7&keywords=pollinator+ecology) > > --academic seminars (the amazing Summer Institute in Statistical Genetics at > U. of Washington is certainly not free: > http://www.biostat.washington.edu/node/967) > > --academic classes (I get to pay $600 a semester simply to finish my Ph.D. > using 'dissertation credits') > > --academic journals (Wiley-Blackwell only recently starting giving any of > their articles for free, but try getting this great article on plant breeding > systems if you aren't lucky enough to have an institution password: > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2012.01730.x/pdf) > > --and academic research (our University has an F&A cost for grants of 42% > currently). > > The academic framework we have in place does assure us some quality for the > money we pay, but this does not bear on the appropriateness of paying for a > product. To claim that academics is less than any other business, requiring > money in exchange for products and services, and to thus require all other > areas of research give away everything for free, is an unfair burden. > > I cannot vouch for the authenticity of every permaculture flyer that comes > across ecolog any more than I can vouch for the greatness of research of any > scientist that happens to send a blog post, but to claim that permaculture > has no specifics or that none of it is 'free' is untrue and has the potential > to mislead people new to the terms and ideas. > > Kevin Burls > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote: > > Ecolog: > > These are the same old generalizations and appeals for money based on > sentiment that I heard from Mollison in the 1970's. The Permaculture folks > never seem to get even close to specifics, and that bothers me. Mollison did > get into specifics back then, in a personal conversation we had at the break, > and he did seem to have some good ideas that revealed that he had some > knowledge of "practical" applications, such as burying old carpet in certain > ways, and I have tried that particular "method" with variable results in > other ways. > > While I might share some of the sentiments, in the absence of specific > examples I can't suppress my suspicion that this might fall into the category > of "eco" exploitation, more than substantive progress in the realm of > ecosystem management. > > I have never had the chutzpa to advertise my seminars on Ecolog (except for > the free one), I would, were I so inclined, now feel free to write up an > advertisement for my own quirky approach to ecosystem observation, > management, and restoration. Unfortunately I have had a bs-ectomy. But > perhaps I can arrange for a transplant of that evil gene if I can find a > qualified donor? > > I have been laboring under the presumption that the main function of Ecolog > was to exchange ideas in an open forum rather than to advertise for > customers. I would welcome postings from "permaculture" folks that are more > in the realm of specific contributions to ecology. Surely their theoretical > foundations could be revealed without threatening their trade secrets, could > they not? > > WT > > "Absolute faith corrupts absolutely" --Eric Hoffer > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Feral Mycelium" > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 4:20 PM > Subject: [ECOLOG-L] [Be the Change] Sustainability, Permaculture and > Leadership > > > Hello friends, > > Many people think of permaculture as gardening, but that's a lot like > thinking of math as being only good for building bridges. Permaculture is > a sustainable design science rooted in observation of nature and providing > solutions to some of our most pressing problems. The same branching > pattern that's found in tree is also found in a river, in your heart, and > numerous other places. That pattern maximizes edge (surface area for > exchanging information or nutrients), increases diversity and serves a > whole range of other functions. > > Join an incredible regenerative leadership and permaculture design > certification retreat in the San Francisco Bay Area, February 16-24th or > April 20-28th, and go beyond sustainability towards a wildly fulfilling > life and a truly regenerative culture. We offer a no-nonsense, deeply > pragmatic, mainstream approach to permaculture. No ideologies, only > functional design and solutions that truly work. "This course was the > BEST time I have had in the past 6 years" -- Lana T > > The most common example of biomimicry and permaculture is velcro, which was > invented by a swiss engineer who removed burrs from his dog, and noticed > how the small hooks on the burr grabbed to his dog's fur. Another great > example is better packaging designs. Have you ever considered how nature > packages pomegranate seeds inside a pomegranate? 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The experiential permaculture design certification > course is your path towards a career in regenerative permaculture design > and a truly thriving life, deeply rooted in the patterns of nature and a > larger vision of regenerative community and regenerative culture. > > Come get inspired by learning pragmatic permaculture design and > regenerative leadership skills for your life, career, business, and > community from the world's leading sustainability experts; and earn your > internationally recognized Permaculture Design Certificate. The skills > offered in this course are applicable to every aspect of your life, far > beyond the garden - you will learn to design nature-inspired, resilient, > regenerative systems – composting toilets, water-catchment system, > natural green buildings, eco-villages and much more. > > While many people think of permaculture as gardening, that's a lot like > thinking of math as being about building bridges. Permaculture is a > sustainable design science rooted in observation of natural patterns. For > example, the same branching pattern of a tree is present in every river, as > well as in our own bodies -- the pattern maximizes edge, increases > diversity, and serves at least a dozen other functions. 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Not only do Regenerative Leadership Institute > courses offer the most complete curriculum of any similar program, but the > people who come to the programs make this the most powerful training > offered anywhere. Gain cutting-edge skills in nature-inspired sustainable > design that's applicable virtually anywhere design is used -- from green > businesses to your own back yard. > > -> Read more @ http://www.permaculturedesigntraining.com > -> San Francisco Bay Area - February 16-24 or April 20-28th > -> Contact us for details about scholarships available for this course! > -> Call 1-800-376-3775 > > The Regenerative Leadership Institute is the nation's ecological design and > sustainable living school; our instructors are key leaders in sustainable > living and permaculture design. > We hope you will be able to join us for this incredible, life-changing > experiential course! > > -- > > Regenerative Leadership Institute > The Nation's Sustainable Living and Permaculture Design School > A+ Rated by the Better Business Bureau > 1-800-376-3775 // > www.permaculturedesigntraining.com<http://www.permaculturedesigntraining.com> > 14525 SW Millikan Way, Suite 17760, Beaverton, OR 97005 > Love us on Facebook: http://facebook.com/regenerativeleader > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> > Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2637/5521 - Release Date: 01/09/13 > > Kevin Burls > Ph.D. candidate > EECB Program > University of Nevada, Reno > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > http://wolfweb.unr.edu/~kburls Kevin Burls Ph.D. candidate EECB Program University of Nevada, Reno [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://wolfweb.unr.edu/~kburls
