I think you're still missing the point. They aren't saying ECS is a success as a platform and objectivehtml won't be. They are saying ECS is a success as far as an open source project, but not as a platform for developing web apps. I think Jon would say that objectivehtml may be every bit as successful of an open-source project as ECS has been and maybe more so, but that doesn't change the fact the method of using Java objects to code HTML is out and MVC templatized approaches are in. The project may be a great implementation of a bad model.
Of course, as Jon and others may remember, I'm one of those ones still using the bad model even though I know it's the bad model so there will likely be some folks who will use objectivehtml. But those folks will be the minority compared to an approach like Turbine/Velocity/etc. -David > -----Original Message----- > From: keithwong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 4:32 PM > To: ECS Users List > Subject: Re: objective html > > > so let me get this right... you guys use some old ideas... > its a success... i use some old ideas.. its a failure.... right... > > anyway Jon, thanks for you help... you email this time round > has been much more constructive... even though i don't agree with it.. > > cheers, > Keith > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "ecs-user" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:24 AM > Subject: Re: objective html > > > > on 12/18/01 10:46 AM, "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > in many ways, ecs is a success. ecs is relatively bug-free and is > > > good > at > > > it's job - creating marked up text in code. it's just that this > > > doesn't seem very exciting any more. > > > > > > - robert > > > > No. We found better ways to solve the problem. > > > > When I started out doing java servlets in 1996; Velocity, WebMacro, > > JSP, JHTML, GSP, etc...all these technologies either didn't > exist or > > clearly sucked and there was nothing else to use. > > > > After being forced by a client (Novell) to use htmlKona (a > commercial > > version of ECS created by weblogic), I did the typical thing and > > figured that weblogic knew what they were doing and > htmlKona must be a > > good idea...little did I know... The sad thing is that > companies like > > BEA/weblogic and Sun continue to push their ideas on people > who don't > > have > a > > clue...not realizing themselves that they don't have a clue > > either...EJB > and > > JSP is a perfect example of this... > > > > Eventually, through much trial and even more error, I > figured out that > > ECS was the wrong way to go. It is more expensive and more work to > > hire java engineers to convert HTML mockups into Java (ECS > code) than > > it is to hire html designers to do it for you. It is even more of a > > pain in the ass to > go > > through the process of revising that code at a later date. > This is why > > ECS as a solution is a failure...there are much better ways now to > > solve the problem that didn't exist before. As a project, it was a > > great > success...we > > developed a really cool piece of code and built a cool > community and I > made > > some good friends (Stephan and Robert). I also learned a > lot about how > > to write Java code. > > > > Needless to say, back to the original email...objectivehtml > will also > > be a failure. Contrary to what you believe, I DID look at > it and I do > > have an understanding of how it works. The failure is not > because you > > don't write good code, but because I have already seen > people do (and > > have done > myself) > > exactly what you are trying to do and have watched it fail multiple > > times. > I > > said this originally, but you didn't get it. I also find it > terribly > > sad > and > > pretty uncool that you came here looking to advertise your product. > > That > is > > like running into a crowded room and yelling out: "Hey, look at me! > > I'm better than all of you!". > > > > Honestly, there is very little room for innovation in the > java webapp > > framework space at this point. We have solved nearly every > problem out > > there. Now, it is a matter of polishing those solutions up and > > packaging them for distribution. DVSL will be the next killer thing > > and is the last major piece in the puzzle and then from > there, it is > > just a matter of polish. > > > > My suggestion to you is to learn an existing framework and use and > > contribute to that instead of trying to re-invent something > that has > > been invented and failed multiple times now. > > > > Good luck. > > > > -jon > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > <mailto:ecs-user-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > For > additional commands, > e-mail: > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > <mailto:ecs-user-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For > additional commands, > e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
