Two thoughts on this: 1) it sounds from the the description of the event that this might also be called a “black swan” event. As we all know, black swans are real, however rare they may be. This is simply another way to say “We never thought of that”, and
2) I had a Trek mountain bike that had a reminder in the manual that “you mountain bike is not a submarine”, as a way to remind owners that riding your bike with the hubs an drive train submerged was a good way to kill the bearings if one didn’t immediately service them after submersion. IMO, although the process functional safety folks will often argue that black swans need not be considered, it’s my opinion that we need to understand them and mitigate them if the analysis shows that perhaps they are more gray than black. “Acts of God” have no place in product safety as far as I’m concerned. Understand the hazards and the best understanding of the probabilities that can be developed, and mitigate to the state of the art. Doug Nix [email protected] Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW -- What a RIDE!! > On 30-Dec-19, at 15:13, Ted Eckert <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Rich > > David Lazarus is discussing contract law, which is one of the areas where I > conceded that “Acts of God” does play a role. The Florida Supreme Court > statement is given as a response to a situation where a hurricane knocked out > power to homeowners. The agreement between the homeowners and the utility for > the delivery of power would fall under contract law, not product liability > law. > > If an “Act of God” were a plausible defense in a product liability case, I > would have expected to have heard of it by now. However, it may be the case > that plaintiff’s’ attorneys know what the limits would be. Acts of nature > generally are not held against a manufacturers. Hurricanes and flood > frequently result in vehicles getting submerged. I am unaware of the owner of > a car being able to successfully bring a claim against the manufacturers for > the vehicle failing to operate properly after being submerged. > > It’s an interesting area to think about, but I suspect it’s up to lawyers and > not engineers to discuss the boundaries. > > Best regards, > Ted > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer. > > From: Richard Nute <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 11:34 AM > To: Ted Eckert <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Subject: RE: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety > > > > Hi Ted: > > I picked the reference from David Lazarus’ December 24th column from the LA > Times: > > https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract > > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fstory%2F2019-12-24%2Facts-of-god-consumer-contract&data=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7Cfd3a059ef7b345ffe72b08d78d5f4053%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637133312573764680&sdata=wFNnJvmvjPHxIczW%2Bi9mtuOyTDpbvSabRryV%2Bf97VRw%3D&reserved=0> > > He says, “… that “acts of God” is cited so frequently as an excuse for not > meeting corporate obligations.” > > In considering the safety of a product, if a product met the standard but > still caused an injury, could or would a corporation invoke that the injury > was an “act of God” to absolve itself from liability as corporations appear > to do for other obligations? > > We’re all biased here. We are “good guys.” We believe it behooves the > manufacturer to take all steps – none of which are “acts of God” -- to > prevent injury from a product. > > Best wishes for the holiday season, > Rich > > PS: Many would say that the eruption of the White Island volcano was an “act > of God.” While volcanic activity was monitored, volcanologists did not > predict the violent eruption. Either the volcanologists were not good > enough, or the eruption was an “act of God”? > > > > From: Ted Eckert <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 8:11 AM > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety > > First, I am not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction. Take what I say > as the view of an engineers with only limited experience in this area. > > The term “Act of God” generally is limited to contract law and to insurance > law. It is also generally limited to natural events such as earthquakes, > tornados and such. It is unlikely that a court in the United States would > accept a claim of an “Act of God” in a product liability case. Rich gives a > brief statement from a 1944 Florida case, but that statement neither includes > context nor takes into account decades of case law and precedent that provide > the current interpretation of the phrase. > > As engineers, it can be fun to play with ideas such as “Act of God”, but it > should be clear that this is just an attempt at humor and has little effect > on liability in product design. > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer. > > From: John Woodgate <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2019 6:41 PM > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety > > Does that prove that at least one god exists? > > Best wishes > With seasonal felicitations > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7Cfd3a059ef7b345ffe72b08d78d5f4053%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637133312573764680&sdata=i3FjundlENN8QbZmHzTAILzSs91s2EjkTolnEl26%2Bek%3D&reserved=0> > On 2019-12-30 02:09, Scott wrote: > If you do a thorough hazard analysis, an act of god is obvious! > > Scott > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 29, 2019, at 8:37 PM, Doug Powell <[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: > > > Rich, > > While many standards do indeed refer to foreseeable events, misuse, etc. I'm > not certain this would automatically confer Act of God status to an > unforeseen event. This hypothetical event may be a case of degrees and not of > two extremes, especially in the case of a formerly unforeseeable and now > preventable situation. Isn't this how many standards are developed over the > years? > > I still remember shoe stores in the 1950s that offered real-time x-ray of how > well shoes fit the customer's feet. An unforeseeable hazard at the time and > now incredibly obvious. Would injury in the former time be an Act of God? > Best wishes, Doug > > From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: December 29, 2019 5:19 PM > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Reply-to: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: [PSES] act of God versus safety > > > > The Florida state Supreme Court ruled in 1944 that an act of God is “an act > or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human foresight could > not foresee or guard against it.” > > If a product that complies with a safety standard injures a person, is the > injury an act of God? > > Best wishes for the holiday season, > Rich > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
