John W & Friends
Earlier this afternoon, we were visiting a friend of my wife and her partner – and, later during a general conversation, the latter and I got around to “risk assessment” (in the context of the Grenfell tower block fire disaster a couple of years ago), and so I outlined to him the “Severity V Probability” “equation, and thus how one has to very fully understand both aspects and the “balance” between them. I then gave an example: A hungry Polar bear is a dangerous animal and would probably consider “me” as food (and thus “Severity” = “fatal”!) should I ever be in his presence, whereas the “Probability” of finding a loose wild and hungry Polar bear in West London is, at least for the “foreseeable” future, “very remote” ;). OTOH, should I climb a long ladder “to do work” on the outside of the house and then fall (thus the “Severity” could be “fatal”), and the “Probability” of me falling off that ladder is “highish” (UK “domestic” accidents stats points to that being one of the biggest causes of requiring people urgent hospital care, even if they did not immediately die!) - thus the “Risk level” is high, as is using sharp/pointed implements like widely available knives and other sharp-edged tools. Thus, John W’s comment that “human foresight, in the present state of knowledge, could not foresee it” is most certainly “highly relevant/appropriate”. John E Allen W. London, UK --- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: 30 December 2019 20:41 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety The volcanologists are not good enough. No human knowledge is exhaustive. It fits fairly well with your cited definition: an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human foresight could not foresee or guard against it but I think the definition is 'over-egged': I would shorten it to: an act or occurrence that human foresight could not foresee or guard against Volcanoes erupt, so an eruption is not 'extraordinary and unprecedented', but human foresight, in the present state of knowledge, could not foresee it. Best wishes With seasonal felicitations John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk On 2019-12-30 19:34, Richard Nute wrote: Hi Ted: I picked the reference from David Lazarus’ December 24th column from the LA Times: <https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract He says, “… that “acts of God” is cited so frequently as an excuse for not meeting corporate obligations.” In considering the safety of a product, if a product met the standard but still caused an injury, could or would a corporation invoke that the injury was an “act of God” to absolve itself from liability as corporations appear to do for other obligations? We’re all biased here. We are “good guys.” We believe it behooves the manufacturer to take all steps – none of which are “acts of God” -- to prevent injury from a product. Best wishes for the holiday season, Rich PS: Many would say that the eruption of the White Island volcano was an “act of God.” While volcanic activity was monitored, volcanologists did not predict the violent eruption. Either the volcanologists were not good enough, or the eruption was an “act of God”? From: Ted Eckert <mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> <000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 8:11 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety First, I am not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction. Take what I say as the view of an engineers with only limited experience in this area. The term “Act of God” generally is limited to contract law and to insurance law. It is also generally limited to natural events such as earthquakes, tornados and such. It is unlikely that a court in the United States would accept a claim of an “Act of God” in a product liability case. Rich gives a brief statement from a 1944 Florida case, but that statement neither includes context nor takes into account decades of case law and precedent that provide the current interpretation of the phrase. As engineers, it can be fun to play with ideas such as “Act of God”, but it should be clear that this is just an attempt at humor and has little effect on liability in product design. The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2019 6:41 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety Does that prove that at least one god exists? Best wishes With seasonal felicitations John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988333332&sdata=vyoyjbn6klAW5msJwV6gqgV8sXjeTGqbhOmuITwHatc%3D&reserved=0> On 2019-12-30 02:09, Scott wrote: If you do a thorough hazard analysis, an act of god is obvious! Scott Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2019, at 8:37 PM, Doug Powell <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> <doug...@gmail.com> wrote: Rich, While many standards do indeed refer to foreseeable events, misuse, etc. I'm not certain this would automatically confer Act of God status to an unforeseen event. This hypothetical event may be a case of degrees and not of two extremes, especially in the case of a formerly unforeseeable and now preventable situation. Isn't this how many standards are developed over the years? I still remember shoe stores in the 1950s that offered real-time x-ray of how well shoes fit the customer's feet. An unforeseeable hazard at the time and now incredibly obvious. Would injury in the former time be an Act of God? Best wishes, Doug From: ri...@ieee.org Sent: December 29, 2019 5:19 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply-to: ri...@ieee.org Subject: [PSES] act of God versus safety The Florida state Supreme Court ruled in 1944 that an act of God is “an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human foresight could not foresee or guard against it.” If a product that complies with a safety standard injures a person, is the injury an act of God? Best wishes for the holiday season, Rich - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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