Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety

[John Woodgate]

Thank you. I try to tackle things like this for my work on standards 
writing.

Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk
On 2019-12-30 20:42, Doug Nix wrote:
I completely agree John. Your revised definition is on the money!

Doug Nix
d...@ieee.org <mailto:d...@ieee.org>
+1 (519) 729-5704

On 30-Dec-19, at 15:40, John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk 
<mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> wrote:

The volcanologists are not good enough. No human knowledge is 
exhaustive.  It fits fairly well with your cited definition:

/an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human 
foresight could not foresee or guard against it/

but I think the definition is 'over-egged': I would shorten it to:

/an act or occurrence that human foresight could not foresee or guard 
against
/

Volcanoes erupt, so an eruption is not 'extraordinary and 
unprecedented', but human foresight, in the present state of 
knowledge, could not foresee it.


Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UKwww.woodjohn.uk
On 2019-12-30 19:34, Richard Nute wrote:
Hi Ted:
I picked the reference from David Lazarus’ December 24^th column 
from the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract
He says, “… that “acts of God” is cited so frequently as an excuse 
for not meeting corporate obligations.”
In considering the safety of a product, if a product met the 
standard but still caused an injury, could or would a corporation 
invoke that the injury was an “act of God” to absolve itself from 
liability as corporations appear to do for other obligations?
We’re all biased here.  We are “good guys.”  We believe it behooves 
the manufacturer to take all steps – none of which are “acts of God” 
-- to prevent injury from a product.
Best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich
PS:  Many would say that the eruption of the White Island volcano 
was an “act of God.” While volcanic activity was monitored, 
volcanologists did not predict the violent eruption.  Either the 
volcanologists were not good enough, or the eruption was an “act of 
God”?
*From:*Ted Eckert<000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
*Sent:*Monday, December 30, 2019 8:11 AM
*To:*EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:*Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety
First, I am not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction. Take 
what I say as the view of an engineers with only limited experience 
in this area.
The term “Act of God” generally is limited to contract law and to 
insurance law. It is also generally limited to natural events such 
as earthquakes, tornados and such. It is unlikely that a court in 
the United States would accept a claim of an “Act of God” in a 
product liability case. Rich gives a brief statement from a 1944 
Florida case, but that statement neither includes context nor takes 
into account decades of case law and precedent that provide the 
current interpretation of the phrase.
As engineers, it can be fun to play with ideas such as “Act of God”, 
but it should be clear that this is just an attempt at humor and has 
little effect on liability in product design.
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect 
those of my employer.
*From:*John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
*Sent:*Sunday, December 29, 2019 6:41 PM
*To:*EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:*[EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety

Does that prove that at least one god exists?

Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UKwww.woodjohn.uk  
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On 2019-12-30 02:09, Scott wrote:

    If you do a thorough hazard analysis, an act of god is obvious!

    Scott

    Sent from my iPhone

        On Dec 29, 2019, at 8:37 PM, Doug Powell<doug...@gmail.com>
        <mailto:doug...@gmail.com>wrote:

    
    Rich,
    While many standards do indeed refer to foreseeable events,
    misuse, etc. I'm not certain this would automatically confer Act
    of God status to an unforeseen event. This hypothetical event
    may be a case of degrees and not of two extremes, especially in
    the case of a formerly unforeseeable and now preventable
    situation. Isn't this how many standards are developed over the
    years?
    I still remember shoe stores in the 1950s that offered real-time
    x-ray of how well shoes fit the customer's feet. An
    unforeseeable hazard at the time and now incredibly obvious.
    Would injury in the former time be an Act of God?

    Best wishes, Doug

    *From:*ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
    *Sent:*December 29, 2019 5:19 PM
    *To:*EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
    *Reply-to:*ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
    *Subject:*[PSES] act of God versus safety

    The Florida state Supreme Court ruled in 1944 that an act of God
    is “an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that
    human foresight could not foresee or guard against it.”
    If a product that complies with a safety standard injures a
    person, is the injury an act of God?
    Best wishes for the holiday season,
    Rich
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>