Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety

[John Woodgate]

The volcanologists are not good enough. No human knowledge is 
exhaustive.  It fits fairly well with your cited definition:

/an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human 
foresight could not foresee or guard against it/

but I think the definition is 'over-egged': I would shorten it to:

/an act or occurrence that human foresight could not foresee or guard 
against
/

Volcanoes erupt, so an eruption is not 'extraordinary and 
unprecedented', but human foresight, in the present state of knowledge, 
could not foresee it.


Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk

On 2019-12-30 19:34, Richard Nute wrote:

Hi Ted:

I picked the reference from David Lazarus’ December 24^th column from 
the LA Times:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract

He says, “… that “acts of God” is cited so frequently as an excuse for 
not meeting corporate obligations.”

In considering the safety of a product, if a product met the standard 
but still caused an injury, could or would a corporation invoke that 
the injury was an “act of God” to absolve itself from liability as 
corporations appear to do for other obligations?

We’re all biased here.  We are “good guys.”  We believe it behooves 
the manufacturer to take all steps – none of which are “acts of God” 
-- to prevent injury from a product.

Best wishes for the holiday season,

Rich

PS:  Many would say that the eruption of the White Island volcano was 
an “act of God.”  While volcanic activity was monitored, 
volcanologists did not predict the violent eruption.  Either the 
volcanologists were not good enough, or the eruption was an “act of God”?

*From:* Ted Eckert <000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
*Sent:* Monday, December 30, 2019 8:11 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety

First, I am not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction. Take 
what I say as the view of an engineers with only limited experience in 
this area.

The term “Act of God” generally is limited to contract law and to 
insurance law. It is also generally limited to natural events such as 
earthquakes, tornados and such. It is unlikely that a court in the 
United States would accept a claim of an “Act of God” in a product 
liability case. Rich gives a brief statement from a 1944 Florida case, 
but that statement neither includes context nor takes into account 
decades of case law and precedent that provide the current 
interpretation of the phrase.

As engineers, it can be fun to play with ideas such as “Act of God”, 
but it should be clear that this is just an attempt at humor and has 
little effect on liability in product design.

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those 
of my employer.

*From:* John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 29, 2019 6:41 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety

Does that prove that at least one god exists?

Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UKwww.woodjohn.uk  
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On 2019-12-30 02:09, Scott wrote:

    If you do a thorough hazard analysis, an act of god is obvious!

    Scott

    Sent from my iPhone

        On Dec 29, 2019, at 8:37 PM, Doug Powell <doug...@gmail.com>
        <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> wrote:

    

    Rich,

    While many standards do indeed refer to foreseeable events,
    misuse, etc. I'm not certain this would automatically confer Act
    of God status to an unforeseen event. This hypothetical event may
    be a case of degrees and not of two extremes, especially in the
    case of a formerly unforeseeable and now preventable situation.
    Isn't this how many standards are developed over the years?

    I still remember shoe stores in the 1950s that offered real-time
    x-ray of how well shoes fit the customer's feet. An unforeseeable
    hazard at the time and now incredibly obvious. Would injury in the
    former time be an Act of God?

    Best wishes, Doug

    *From:*ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>

    *Sent:*December 29, 2019 5:19 PM

    *To:*EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

    *Reply-to:*ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>

    *Subject:*[PSES] act of God versus safety

    The Florida state Supreme Court ruled in 1944 that an act of God
    is “an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that
    human foresight could not foresee or guard against it.”

    If a product that complies with a safety standard injures a
    person, is the injury an act of God?

    Best wishes for the holiday season,

    Rich

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