Thank you very much.
Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk
On 2019-12-30 21:23, John Allen wrote:
John W & Friends
Earlier this afternoon, we were visiting a friend of my wife and her
partner – and, later during a general conversation, the latter and I
got around to “risk assessment” (in the context of the Grenfell tower
block fire disaster a couple of years ago), and so I outlined to him
the “Severity V Probability” “equation, a*/_nd thus how one has to
very fully understand both aspects and the “balance” between them._/*
I then gave an example: A hungry Polar bear is a dangerous animal and
would probably consider “me” as food (and thus “Severity” = “fatal”!)
should I ever be in his presence, whereas the “Probability” of finding
a loose wild and hungry Polar bear in West London is, at least for the
“foreseeable” future, “very remote” ;).
OTOH, should I climb a long ladder “to do work” on the outside of the
house and then fall (thus the “Severity” could be “fatal”), and the
“Probability” of me falling off that ladder is “highish” (UK
“domestic” accidents stats points to that being one of the biggest
causes of requiring people urgent hospital care, even if they did not
immediately die!) - thus the “Risk level” is high, as is using
sharp/pointed implements like widely available knives and other
sharp-edged tools.
_Thus, John W’s comment that “human foresight, in the present state of
knowledge, could not foresee it” is most certainly “highly
relevant/appropriate”. _
**
John E Allen
W. London, UK
---
*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* 30 December 2019 20:41
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety
The volcanologists are not good enough. No human knowledge is
exhaustive. It fits fairly well with your cited definition:
/an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human
foresight could not foresee or guard against it/
but I think the definition is 'over-egged': I would shorten it to:
/an act or occurrence that human foresight could not foresee or guard
against/
Volcanoes erupt, so an eruption is not 'extraordinary and
unprecedented', but human foresight, in the present state of
knowledge, could not foresee it.
Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UKwww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
On 2019-12-30 19:34, Richard Nute wrote:
Hi Ted:
I picked the reference from David Lazarus’ December 24^th column
from the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract
He says, “… that “acts of God” is cited so frequently as an excuse
for not meeting corporate obligations.”
In considering the safety of a product, if a product met the
standard but still caused an injury, could or would a corporation
invoke that the injury was an “act of God” to absolve itself from
liability as corporations appear to do for other obligations?
We’re all biased here. We are “good guys.” We believe it
behooves the manufacturer to take all steps – none of which are
“acts of God” -- to prevent injury from a product.
Best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich
PS: Many would say that the eruption of the White Island volcano
was an “act of God.” While volcanic activity was monitored,
volcanologists did not predict the violent eruption. Either the
volcanologists were not good enough, or the eruption was an “act
of God”?
*From:* Ted Eckert <000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
<mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
*Sent:* Monday, December 30, 2019 8:11 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety
First, I am not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction. Take
what I say as the view of an engineers with only limited
experience in this area.
The term “Act of God” generally is limited to contract law and to
insurance law. It is also generally limited to natural events such
as earthquakes, tornados and such. It is unlikely that a court in
the United States would accept a claim of an “Act of God” in a
product liability case. Rich gives a brief statement from a 1944
Florida case, but that statement neither includes context nor
takes into account decades of case law and precedent that provide
the current interpretation of the phrase.
As engineers, it can be fun to play with ideas such as “Act of
God”, but it should be clear that this is just an attempt at humor
and has little effect on liability in product design.
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer.
*From:* John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 29, 2019 6:41 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety
Does that prove that at least one god exists?
Best wishes
With seasonal felicitations
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UKwww.woodjohn.uk
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988333332&sdata=vyoyjbn6klAW5msJwV6gqgV8sXjeTGqbhOmuITwHatc%3D&reserved=0>
On 2019-12-30 02:09, Scott wrote:
If you do a thorough hazard analysis, an act of god is obvious!
Scott
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 29, 2019, at 8:37 PM, Doug Powell
<doug...@gmail.com> <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> wrote:
Rich,
While many standards do indeed refer to foreseeable events,
misuse, etc. I'm not certain this would automatically confer
Act of God status to an unforeseen event. This hypothetical
event may be a case of degrees and not of two extremes,
especially in the case of a formerly unforeseeable and now
preventable situation. Isn't this how many standards are
developed over the years?
I still remember shoe stores in the 1950s that offered
real-time x-ray of how well shoes fit the customer's feet. An
unforeseeable hazard at the time and now incredibly obvious.
Would injury in the former time be an Act of God?
Best wishes, Doug
*From:*ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
*Sent:*December 29, 2019 5:19 PM
*To:*EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Reply-to:*ri...@ieee.org <mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
*Subject:*[PSES] act of God versus safety
The Florida state Supreme Court ruled in 1944 that an act of
God is “an act or occurrence so extraordinary and
unprecedented that human foresight could not foresee or guard
against it.”
If a product that complies with a safety standard injures a
person, is the injury an act of God?
Best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
