I completely agree John. Your revised definition is on the money! Doug Nix [email protected] +1 (519) 729-5704
> On 30-Dec-19, at 15:40, John Woodgate <[email protected]> wrote: > > The volcanologists are not good enough. No human knowledge is exhaustive. It > fits fairly well with your cited definition: > > an act or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human foresight > could not foresee or guard against it > > but I think the definition is 'over-egged': I would shorten it to: > > an act or occurrence that human foresight could not foresee or guard against > > Volcanoes erupt, so an eruption is not 'extraordinary and unprecedented', but > human foresight, in the present state of knowledge, could not foresee it. > > > > Best wishes > With seasonal felicitations > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk/> > On 2019-12-30 19:34, Richard Nute wrote: >> >> >> Hi Ted: >> >> I picked the reference from David Lazarus’ December 24th column from the LA >> Times: >> >> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract >> >> <https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-12-24/acts-of-god-consumer-contract> >> >> He says, “… that “acts of God” is cited so frequently as an excuse for not >> meeting corporate obligations.” >> >> In considering the safety of a product, if a product met the standard but >> still caused an injury, could or would a corporation invoke that the injury >> was an “act of God” to absolve itself from liability as corporations appear >> to do for other obligations? >> >> We’re all biased here. We are “good guys.” We believe it behooves the >> manufacturer to take all steps – none of which are “acts of God” -- to >> prevent injury from a product. >> >> Best wishes for the holiday season, >> Rich >> >> PS: Many would say that the eruption of the White Island volcano was an >> “act of God.” While volcanic activity was monitored, volcanologists did not >> predict the violent eruption. Either the volcanologists were not good >> enough, or the eruption was an “act of God”? >> >> >> >> From: Ted Eckert <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 8:11 AM >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety >> >> First, I am not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction. Take what I >> say as the view of an engineers with only limited experience in this area. >> >> The term “Act of God” generally is limited to contract law and to insurance >> law. It is also generally limited to natural events such as earthquakes, >> tornados and such. It is unlikely that a court in the United States would >> accept a claim of an “Act of God” in a product liability case. Rich gives a >> brief statement from a 1944 Florida case, but that statement neither >> includes context nor takes into account decades of case law and precedent >> that provide the current interpretation of the phrase. >> >> As engineers, it can be fun to play with ideas such as “Act of God”, but it >> should be clear that this is just an attempt at humor and has little effect >> on liability in product design. >> >> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my >> employer. >> >> From: John Woodgate <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2019 6:41 PM >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] act of God versus safety >> >> Does that prove that at least one god exists? >> >> Best wishes >> With seasonal felicitations >> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only >> Rayleigh, Essex UK www.woodjohn.uk >> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988333332&sdata=vyoyjbn6klAW5msJwV6gqgV8sXjeTGqbhOmuITwHatc%3D&reserved=0> >> On 2019-12-30 02:09, Scott wrote: >> If you do a thorough hazard analysis, an act of god is obvious! >> >> Scott >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On Dec 29, 2019, at 8:37 PM, Doug Powell <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Rich, >> >> While many standards do indeed refer to foreseeable events, misuse, etc. I'm >> not certain this would automatically confer Act of God status to an >> unforeseen event. This hypothetical event may be a case of degrees and not >> of two extremes, especially in the case of a formerly unforeseeable and now >> preventable situation. Isn't this how many standards are developed over the >> years? >> >> I still remember shoe stores in the 1950s that offered real-time x-ray of >> how well shoes fit the customer's feet. An unforeseeable hazard at the time >> and now incredibly obvious. Would injury in the former time be an Act of >> God? >> Best wishes, Doug >> >> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Sent: December 29, 2019 5:19 PM >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Reply-to: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: [PSES] act of God versus safety >> >> >> >> The Florida state Supreme Court ruled in 1944 that an act of God is “an act >> or occurrence so extraordinary and unprecedented that human foresight could >> not foresee or guard against it.” >> >> If a product that complies with a safety standard injures a person, is the >> injury an act of God? >> >> Best wishes for the holiday season, >> Rich >> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988343332&sdata=rTkwuWVfepdUIINGQDeYC62BSal0aidnkXTBG61oRfY%3D&reserved=0> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ >> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988343332&sdata=ylLZeVffEiUn5cSE70z3i8Gs089oMgz1ZSdS%2FOHtYV4%3D&reserved=0> >> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988353320&sdata=7MQrlKg8AEPXxViQIF%2BSv46qUBm32ELjHruBy0zJmEQ%3D&reserved=0> >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) >> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988353320&sdata=P7JKG4pOGEdgvbtFMjGDhiR8zJR7o0gexIAzs4p6JFo%3D&reserved=0> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C32c7554ee7b84ede46c508d78cd1cacf%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637132704988363315&sdata=27UTTb6Aqu6Mm%2Fe61OIpKPZhCndQ2kID6ZUQeVcAJVo%3D&reserved=0> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ >> <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> >> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ >> <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in >> well-used formats), large files, etc. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> >> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <http://www.ieee-pses.org/> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > <http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html> > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
