On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:24:59 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> said:
> OK, I get it, you have zero understanding of virtual worlds, and no > desire to learn anything about them, hence you have no clue what I've > been talking about. There are things you can do in virtual worlds you > cannot do in the real world, that's one reason they exist. Perhaps if > you just trusted me on this subject. B-) ARGH! i get what they are. they are NOT GAMES. they have value only to a specific set of people who like this. you're jumping to conclusions. my list of various online massive world/3d games was that... i'm familiar with the TECHNICAL ASPECTS of such things from the point of view of a user AND i've tried my hand ad 3d engine building long ago. simple stuff but i've been there. i know what 2nd life et al are. they have no VALUE TO ME. i see no reason to have some immersive 3d world thing unless it's providing me with something like entertainment. i see the use for 3d in other areas. frankly google earth these days is pretty amazing. if you go to the cities where they have full 3d scans of the city and all the buildings, trees, monuments turn up as (rough-ish) models... it's rather "wow". it's an awesome way to explore a city remotely and see almost what it really looks like. try look at places like rome, or berlin in google earth. try hong kong or tokyo. this is a 3d world with a purpose. mapping and exploration. i have no use for a 3d world where you and everyone has avatars and pretends to be someone they are not building virtual houses or whatever. that may be of interest to OTHERS, but not ME. you will never get MY interest by pushing this and this alone. and i'm trying to tell you that the vast majority of people on this planet are similar. they are not interested. they ARE interested in entertainment. they seem to have use for utilities like above. > Yeah lots of people make the mistake of thinking virtual worlds are > games. They are not. Games tend to have way better graphics than > anything Second Life and OpenSim can do, SledjHamr should be able to and thus my interest instantly drops. if you don't have the eyecandy... even then JUSt eyecandy for eyecandy's sake gets a wow... but it wont get people to turn up or stay without continued goals/content. > do much better graphics coz EFL. Games have actual game mechanics, > virtual worlds do not. Sure you can actually script games in either > system if you want, and people have done so. Game mechanics are not > part of SledjHamr, so I'm not gonna write any games, not even demo > games. Any pre existing LSL (Second Life's scripting language) game > scripts will run fine, and people will have the choice of other > languages in SledjHamr. I'll likely track down some open source LSL > games and include them in the default download. this should be the very very very very first thing you do. find THE most impressive "wow" like open source games and include them as the very default thing. you want to have this in big fat screenshots/videos on your site. no one has any clue about all of this without that, and they frankly never will nor will they care until you do SOME effort in marketing like the above. > Ah, only polish gets your attention. Yeah, I'm mostly concerned with dude. this is the case for 99% of people. it's a lesson i've learned. i happen to have learned it very early on and it's been re-enforced for 20+ years. i am trying to help you - stop dismissing polish as "oh BAH! polish! BAH eyecandy! sexiness! bah! i am working on all this invisible nuts and bolts code and thus you are so superficial if you cannot see the beauty of it all from my wall of text" ... if you don't care about the presentation of your work then get used to being ignored. this is a cold hard fact of life. you SHOULD have been taught this way back in school when your teachers marked you on your assignments and would mark you down if your handwriting was awful etc. etc. - presentation MATTERS. > getting stuff to work, or getting ideas written down, not making it look dude. an idea written down has no value at all. write ideas all you like. people who write up ideas and write more and more THINK this has value because they put effort into the thinking/writing. IT DOES NOT. DOING has value. PRESENTING what you have done so others can digest it nicely, easily and get excited - that has value. SOLVING SOMEONES PROBLEMS has value. SOVLING problems elegantly has even more value. ideas are like arse holes... everyone has one. :) it's the execution and delivery that counts. > pretty, yet. Though I did spend some effort in MakeHuman building an and THAT is your problem. you are not prioritizing making it pretty. making your delivery. your presentation... ENTICING. if you want no attention, help, interest, then fine - don't do this, but don't complain if no one cares. not being sexy is a valid way of building something - you're in submarine mode. it's often a good idea to not let your competition know you are coming yet... BUT do not complain of the lack of interest or attention then. you want attention - get to the prettiness. and don't fob it off with "well i'm not an artist". that's like THE most over-used excuse by programmers around the world. then LEARN. you learned to program. you learned new concepts, languages, math, etc. ... then LEARN to draw, model, design, etc. - it's a learnable skill like anything else. spend the time and effort and you will be able to improve the presentation level of your creations. > avatar of myself, and the exact opposite of myself (I'm a tall old bald > male, the opposite is a short young female with long hair), then trying > them out in SledjHamr. Which showed a problem with slow model loading, you speak speak speak... where are the screenshots, videos... the stuff that matter for any 3d engine to get people interested/excited. > so I tried a more cut down avatar as well, which was still a tad slow, > but no slower than Second Life. All other models used so far are ones > that EFL already had in various examples and tests, not a lot of pretty > there really. Evas_3D isn't up to importing anything from Second Life > yet. that's quite possible. but you really need to market your work. yes it takes time. that's life. sleeping takes time. eating takes time. if you want friends - socializing takes time. if you have a family - keeping them takes time... if you have pets, they want your attention, love ... and that takes time. the good stuff in life takes time. you want your work to be used, supported, etc. - market it. at LEASt do the basics of having a website that is usable, navigable, has links that work rather than plain text, has up to date documentation that is simple for others to follow to get set up, and above all has a carrot to draw you in like screenshots and/or videos etc. etc. > The model animation mechanism in Evas_3D is frame based, all Second > Life animations are either skeletal based, or scripted manipulation of > primitives. So the only thing animated in SledjHamr right now is the > Sonic model. > > Some parts don't even work any more for EFL 1.18, which I'm still > fixing. Construction sites are not pretty, nor easy to navigate. > Experimental stuff is experimental, deal with it. There's a whole > bunch of stuff that has to be working before there can be anything like > a useful demo, so you can't expect me to START with those just to get > people interested. If I tried to make a video, bug T3282 (or what yes.. i CAN expect you to start with that to get people interested... if you are complaining that no one is interested! choose. interest or not. make a choice. if you choose interest of others then DO THE MARKETING. otherwise be happy with the disinterest. > looks to be it's current replacement) will bite, and the result wont be > pretty. Evas_3D itself just ain't ready for pretty demos, especially > not Elementary + Evas_3D. So you can hardly expect me to be able to do > so either. i have SEEN pretty demos with evas_3d. it can do them. but be that as it may... maybe it's not abl to do some specific things you want/need - then work around. avoid those things. that bug above (T3282) would have NO effect on a demo for the purposes of such because it only happens once someone has decided to switch away from it. i suspect its the texture unloading/dumping that evas does to minimize background mem usage. but either way it wouldn't affect the impressiveness of your demo at all. it's an excuse not to do one. > The overall intention of SledjHamr IS to make it "download app, run it, > everything is simple and pretty", including things like no need for > accounts or servers. Eventually. If it's not easier to use, less > resource intensive, and prettier than Second Life, then that's a > failure. intent doesn't get me interested. a demo - something tangible, hell even screenshots and videos would. that goes for the vast majority of people. if i have enough of a carrot in screenshots and videos to then make me bother to download/build etc. etc. - then ... sure. here the "i" is the proverbial i - another person who you want to maybe have an interest in your work. even if it was super-sexy, i personally might just download the demo to experience the "wow well it really is like that!" experience, but i wouldn't stay for virtual worlds. i might stay for a bit longer and/or use repeatedly for entertainment... or real utility. (ala google earth). > For the 3D in file requester thing, we did also discuss putting it in > the thumbnailer, or using a short animation instead of 3D. I think I > said a short animation was acceptable, if not ideal. The entire > subject was brought up coz of redesigning the thumbnailer. I was just yes. and i said repeatedly to put it in the thumbnailer NOT in the file selector. and you chose to take that as me saying "bugger off with your 3d". you kept making the case of wanting the 3d model viewer directly int he file selector. that's a no from me. thumbnaler? yes! file selector in-process? no. > trying to make sure that some form of modular system was used that > could cater for 3D thumbnails, and FDO icons (which was dropped last > time it came up). I even offered to write both myself. I was just > asking that such things be considered in some sort of generic way in > the REDESIGN of ethumb. If 3D icons in a file requester is important, > then you are likely already using an application that is showing 3D > models, so the overhead you mention isn't a problem, it's already > there. If it's not important, you don't have to load up the crap to > show them. but if i have a fileselector and it happens to open $HOME and there happens to be a bunch of 3d models in it - every app that happens to go through that directory will then pay the price. so no. you want a full 3d model viewer? do it in your app. you already have it. add a view to the file selector window and on file hilight/select display the model, but that's not in the CORE file selector itself. > While it is true that I have commit access, and can write to anything I > want, it's more polite to discuss things with the people that actually > are working on various parts. Which is what I've been trying to do. > This is why, when I wrote my Elementary Evas_3D example, I didn't put > it into Elementary, I put it into my EFL dev repo, and mentioned it so people put lots of things in their dev repos, most people have no idea it exists. your commits are not set to the git commits mailing list. someone has to be actively told to look for your repo and check it out. you have to do marketing and attention seeking to get that to happen. you want to shove it in everone's face - then it needs to be in a core repo/tree like the efl tree. > that if it was acceptable as a demo, we could move it to Elementary. I > could have just slapped it into Elementary, but I'm not one of the > people responsible for that. i don't ever remember a patch review request from you nor a mail here with some subject like "hey i have this awesome evas 3d example - wouldn't it be good if i added it to elementary_test? here it is - try it. what do you think?" i've seen you here COMPLAIN about you being ignored. but that's part of a whole other thread now about that subject. > Until today, I have had no feedback from the Evas_3D people, now they > invited me to work on it, so I will. If the first time I had offered to > work on Evas_3D had actually gone ahead, then I would have been doing > the work already, instead of ranting about it. why not just get on with it? if no one is responding then obviously no one is managing that bit of code. it's dead/orphaned etc. - don't just send one mail, try multiple times in case it got lost. or perhaps they no longer care or it's not important enough anymore so your pings will eventually get an answer to that effect to stop the noise. but either way... you need to actively chase. :( > Isn't the entire purpose of the bug tracker to, you know, actually track > bugs. So yeah, people should be looking there for the bugs in the parts > of the system they are responsible for. Phab didn't even have an > Evas_3D category until I complained about the lack of one when lodging > my bug reports. you can easily assign to efl and it the title put evas 3d. it wasn't necessary to have it. > I have just as much coding experience as you do, probably more, you > can't pull that card on me. Mines bigger than yours. ;-P and yet... i don't whinge about being ignored. if something matters enough to me i get off my butt and get cracking. if i haven't done that yet then it doesn't matter enough yet. -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. 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