On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 22:12:00 +1000 onefang Rejected <onef...@gmail.com> said:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:27:09 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) > <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:16:03 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> > > said: > > > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:00:01 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) > > > <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:23:33 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> > > > > said: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:29:50 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The > > > > > Rasterman) <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > one thing with your evas 3d usage... it's not real/useful to > > > > > > anyone else. if you made open source tools/apps that were > > > > > > easily usable and downloadable (without needing special > > > > > > accounts you have to pay for e.g second life) then you would > > > > > > be interesting/relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > let me give you a sample: > > > > > > > > > > > > if you made a really nice world clock app for seeing world > > > > > > timezones, selecting yours, setting date/time etc. that even > > > > > > did sexy stuff like used topological maps of the world so > > > > > > when you zoom into an area you get some mountains/hills and > > > > > > so on... and this was part of e's settings tools or clock > > > > > > tool with calendar etc. ... well then that'd be really cool > > > > > > and useful to LOTs of people and accessible to everyone. :) > > > > > > just saying. you're emails are "i'm working on this thing.. > > > > > > here on my hard drive... it does x/y/z and will do x/y/z". > > > > > > that's not REAL to anyone. it's not accessible. it's not used > > > > > > daily thus important. :) you want evas 3d to be useful to > > > > > > your BIGGER projects you do like this, do some smaller ones > > > > > > out the front that people see and use daily. :) > > > > > > > > > > Er, my project is for Second Life, OpenSim, AND an alternative > > > > > to both, and is on Github. Your arguments are invalid. Hell, > > > > > my general idea is to make server side so efficient that by > > > > > default, anyone can run their own little server to invite their > > > > > friends to, even on their phone. I'm trying to open up 3D > > > > > virtual worlds to the masses. > > > > > > > > "that are easily downloadable and usable without special > > > > accounts". someone has to set up a server, run it, need accounts, > > > > etc. is it a tool readily usable out of the box that people > > > > actually will need/use regularly. a secondlife or quivalent is > > > > not. a terminal is. a wm is. a web browser is. ... if someone has > > > > to set up a server themselves or register accounts somewhere else > > > > at all you just failed the "useful to anyone" :) > > > > > > If you read SledjHamr.org, you'll see I have taken all of that into > > > account. Now you are just making up excuses to ignore me. > > > > count the number of people here participating in any virtual world. > > they use terminals. email clients. wm's. the number of people > > involved in virtual worlds who would even look is small at best. > > perhaps you don't like it, but i'm trying to tell you that the reason > > no one is paying attention is you do not have something they want. > > maybe others do, but no one here working on efl or e or core users > > etc. is. or almost no one. if they were, then you wouldnt be a > > periphery thing. i am not saying your work is bad or its stupid or > > anything. i'm saying that expecting relevance is dependent on things > > being relevant to others. if efl breaks terminology then that break > > becomes relevant because LOTs of people use it here and even > > elsewhere. but especially here. if evas_3d was being used in e for eg > > 3d cube desktop switching effects... it'd be relevant to a whole lot > > of people immediately. > > > > i'm not even going to look at those projects because the premise of > > them as a virtual world is not interesting or relevant to me. it is > > to you and that's great. not to me. and if you go around wondering > > why they are not paying attention then this is the primary reason. > > you have to have things in common that make the things you want be > > relevant. :) i'm trying to help you here by pointing out that to help > > the project you care about, you may have to do other side projects > > that have relevance to others to bring that to the fore. :) > > That kinda sounds like you are telling me I basically have to bribe > people to get anywhere. Do you realise that A) a 3D virtual world welcome to the real world. it's not bribe. it's marketing. it's shared interest. it's a carrot. this is why you should always go from zero to demo ASAP because that is your carrot. you have to give people a REASON to prioritize you or your things above others. > system is kinda HUGE (will take years, already has), 2) it involves all and if it's going to be more years until anyone sees anything interesting out of it (demos, videos, screenshots, something playable and nice-ish)... then expect no interest until such a time. > sorts of sub projects that have to work together, III) lots of little > side projects will drop out of it over the years simply due to A and > 2, D) some of these might be the "relevant to others" you seek, why > don't you look at the damn web site, and tell me which ones? There's > even a nice picture showing all of them. i did.the site pretty much makes me want to leave as soon as possible and scrub my eyes out with a rock. links are to plain text where further links are stuff i have to copy and paste. it flips between black and white as a result (white bg being a browser default for most), ... i can go on. you give me no reason to dig. and tbh - i don't go "dumpster diving" for giggles. when i NED something i look. at that point in time i'll dumpster-dive to google and see what i can find. depending on what it is though.. i may just build it as searching, reading, investigating, understanding take time and i you have to do it 10 or 20 times and maybe find nothing that fits and end up having to DIY... you just wasted days or weeks. you want to make sledjhamr good for dumpster diving? make it more marketable. screenshots, break it up into nice categories without walls of plain text files with links to the repo code in question or an api or "why should i care about this?" in a short form. if the full details are there after you have my attention then great! but i'm not combing through your pile of stuff just because you happen to have a pile of stuff. if i NEED something i'll do a surgical strike dumpster dive for it. or just build it. whichever i believe will get me to the goal better/faster/etc. > OK, since you are going to ignore my web site, I'll explain that my > design is more of a P2P thingy, no need to setup a server. It also > defaults to what ever user name your desktop already knows, and > leverages OpenSims HyperGrid protocol such that there is no need for > servers or accounts. So no need to set up servers or accounts. Also, none of this is relevant to me. i don't need or care about p2p or hypergrid (whatever that is - quoting it doesn't make ti more interesting) etc. > no one HAS to pay for Second Life or OpenSim accounts, you can, but you > don't have to, basic accounts on every one I have looked at are free, > including Second Life. Lots of OpenSim grids are completely free to > use. The number of people using SL and OS would far outweigh the > number of people using terminology, or E. Your arguments are invalid. invalid because it's basically essentially night impossible to figure out what sledjhamr is or how to get it/build it and what it'll do for me? but as i said - even the premise of some 2nd life world has me not interested. i used to at one point play WoW. I played age of conan, and anarchy online, lineage 2, everquest, asheron's call... just for a few. i stopped. i just don't have the time. but these things provided some value for me. they provided entertainment. i knew what i was getting into. i had screenshots and games with goals - collect, level up, kill etc. but for virtual worlds? what purpose? i have a real world right here that keeps me very busy. you want me interested in your virtual world engine - make me interested in virtual worlds again. give me sexy graphics that blow my mind. give me a story line and environment that make me WANT to come and be there. a site with a wall of text does the exact REVERSE from encouraging me. ESPECIALLY if you claim it's all about 3d worlds. that should be the big fat splashscreen image right there. and then more. videos. something to drool over. i am not interetsed in chasing up all these little shards of "but you can use opensim"... what is open sim? where? why should i care? ALL of this should be a simple "few steps" on the page to get set up. if you fail to do your marketing you will keep being ignored. people are busy. you want relevance? give them something they care about in a neat and easy package. skip the virtual world sims and start with some simple 3d games that entertain that suck people in. expand from there. that's one way. get your technology powering day to day things. > I repeat, I am being ignored, for no good reason. > > When Evas_3D initially landed, I offered to help out, I recall two > things in particular I offered to help with. One was an Elementary > example, which I did actually provide. It's in the EFL repo, but was > ignored. For a long time it was the ONLY Elementary example of Evas_3D where is the patch review request? D987what? do you have any idea how many tasks/bugs there are to look at all day every day? even many of these fall between gaps without regular pings and attention seeking. > usage in our repo, but entirely ignored. It's currently broken due to > the recent changes, I've not updated it yet, no one cares anyway, why > bother. ^^^^^^^ as above. as it's a repo no one KNOWS exists, and even i they did.. it's not built or used regularly.. it will break and no one will care. if it was the default test/sample then it would be built and run regularly and it'd be fixed to not break. > The second thing I offered was to port libg3d to Evas_3D, a modular > library that supports over thirty 3D model formats. If I recall it was > initially accepted as a good thing to do, but not just yet, we had to > wait for some initial model loading code to be written, so I could > follow the example of how it should be done to fit in with the Evas_3D > team. Shortly after, I understand a different team took over Evas_3D, > and they ignored this offer entirely. did you put in a submitted patch? D123what? > I have created bug reports about Evas_3D, the only one that got any > actual response was the one that mentioned the missing tag in the bug > system for Evas_3D. I don't think that was the Evas_3D team though, > more the phab admin team. That missing tag was solved very quickly. > One of the bugs seems to have been "fixed" by accident, though it was > replaced be a very similar one. That particular bug does not show up > in any of the other examples, but they do in mine, coz the other > examples don't load textures in multiple models. Until this bug is > properly fixed, no Elementary Evas_3D application that uses more than a > single texture will actually work right. So how can anyone provide a > small utility that is used every day? do you have any idea how many bug tickets do not get attention? a LOT. there's a hell of a lot of them. there are priorities and time available. sometimes no one is even looking. but ... if evas 3d isn't handling a texture load right.. *I* am not looking at it because it doesn't affect apps being used day to day, and things like that are a priority. if regular day to day usage involved testing these code paths THEN they would get fixed. > The Evas_3D developers recently requested some design comments on this > list. I was the only person that actually responded on the list, and as > far as I can tell, my responses where ignored, not even any > acknowledgement that they where read. This is what leads me to think > I'm the only one outside of Samsung actually trying to use Evas_3D. that's very very very likely. > Hell, even before Evas_3D was made public, I made it clear on this list > that I was working on trying to get EFL and a popular 3D engine to work > together. Once more, this was ignored. so you're trying to get them to work together... what do you expect? a parade? you expect every email needs to get an answer? things that are high priority to people get attention. if you want attention, MAKE IT A PRIORITY. i can say that there is going to be friction. if you want full 3d world views to be a default i'm going to disabuse anyone of that really fast because that's a recipe in bumping memory footprint ski high and dropping performance through the floor. if it's used in certain not-so-critical areas as "nice to have's" then... we're possibly talking. the best places are games though, so make games that people want to play day to day... and get them up and playable ASAP. :) > Showing 3D thumbnails in standard file requesters could actually be the > relevant useful little thing you are craving, yet you went to great > lengths to poo poo that idea. If I wasn't being ignored, people could > actually pick small things out of my huge project that could be useful, > BUT ... i covered that in detail and why not. hell not in a file requestor itself. YES as a back-end slave that is thumbnailing to image files. YES if you want a fancy world clock thing that is its own app in a window... YES to games. ... but you need to keep in mind that if i DON'T put the foot down on bloat, things go out of control FAST. i've just spent some time profiling dirty pages and de-bloating just the simple act of LINKING to a library. osmesa is still a bloat issue but that's more complex than the others i did. openssl in emile (and still ecore_con) is also such an issue. > I AM BEING FUCKING IGNORED! no. you're being told "NOT IN THE FILE REQUESTOR. PUT IT IN a THUMBNAIL SLAVe BINARY". ethumb already has this. it can be done today. i do think ethumb needa redesign as its design fails for smack and other locked down environments AND it hurts when you dont have a dbus session too etc. - it needs to be redone ... but that is orthogonal to making a preview TOOL that saves out 5, 10, 20, or whatever images at a low-ish res to a file that are looped. > I'm not fucking perfect, I'm a great programmer, but lousy at selling > things, including myself. Please stop ignoring me, just go have a > fucking look. i did. i've gone over this. > Or keep ignoring me, and I'll just have to start ignoring the Evas_3D > team. Relevance works both ways. More shit would get done, for all of > us, if Evas_3D was worked on by more than a small insular Samsung > team. Evas_3D would likely already have my additional 30+ model > loaders if I wasn't being ignored, including popular model formats. there a patch review system for just this if you are unsure. hell you HAVE GIT COMMIT ACCESS - what's stopping you? other than yourself? if you care and i believe you do, get cracking! you could have your evas 3d demos as standard demos e.g. in elm_test. shouldn't there be an elm_3d widget for just this purpose? like elm_glview... no one is stopping you. if you expect other people to do this work FOR you and dig through your pile of stuff and figure it out... you'll be waiting a long long long time. > Do you ignore other application developers coz they don't provide small > immediately useful items to the EFL devs? It's particularly galling > since I HAVE FUCKING CONTRIBUTED TO EFL AND E in quite a few ways over > the years, even stuff that's still used by everyone. you expect ANYONE to go over sledjhamr.org? seriously? let's go back to the beginning. you are being deemed not relevant because YOU insist on sitting on ubuntu 12.04 and you want everyone to cater to that old distro version because YOU refuse to upgrade. everyone has long since moved on except you. those that have not will have to do some --enable/--disable fenangling. no you don't count as representative of the userbase to whom DEFAULT OPTIONS are targetted. this also counts for evas_3d and anything related. it's not widely used atm. we should have better/more demos for it. it should have more real life usage. sledjhamr sorry is not real life usage in any volume because almost no one will figure it out and ever build it or run it except you UNTIL such a time as you make it interesting/relevant. > A library is fairly useless if no application developers actually use > it. Do all application developers have to bribe EFL developers with > recently written tidbits to get any support? It's gonna take a long > time to get anywhere useful with my huge 3D virtual world project, > that's gonna take an awful lot of bribes over the years. If I have to > keep wasting my time keeping you happy with lots of little 3D bribes, > then I might as well not bother. Would be quicker for me to just go > with some other 3D engine. i am not hunting for stuff to add to my todo list. it's overflowing. most people's todolists are. they are filled with BASIC stuff that are needed everywhere. > No one ever bribed me as an EFL developer, I kept contributing anyway. you do not want to go there. do you know how many 1000's of hours i've sunk into e, efl out of sheer sweat and tears with no one bribing me or helping out? without a single red cent for it? i've done this since 1996. do you know how many weekends i did not go out. how many 1000's nights i worked on stuff until well after midnight? and gave it away for free? do you know i started terminology and one of the reasons to do it was as a bribe for the general public to care about efl? rage -> same story? i've actually built it twice. i built the first rage as a bribe to MYSELF to add yuvvideo support to evas so i could build emotion so i could have a DVB player support for my tv? you need to get off that high horse and realize that while you want to make it sound like a dirty word... bribes... are *INCENTIVES*. and they are part and parcel of development, technical marketing and getting people to pay attention and be on your side. i tried to give you the advice i've learned from years of cold hard experience. you need a bribe to get people's attention. i learned that by luck with the first enlightenment's and rxvt-xpm's - the bribe is eyecandy and people like it. that means screenshots. what what you do is graphical then you'd better damned well have eyecandy for them or expect to be irrelevant. why do you think almost the FIRST things i posted about terminology were... YOUTUBE videos! because it's a bribe to get attention and usage. it's INCENTIVE. it's called marketing. cal it a bribe all you like to try and make it sound bad - this is how you get humans to care ESPECIALLY with graphics/3d/etc. i'm trying to help you by giving you advice on how to get attention. please take that to heart. no one is blocking you from solving the problems you need or want solved. you do act as if you are blocked at every occasion though. i can say that if you added 3d model viewers to fileselectors that'd end quickly, but as i said - make it a back-end and we're good. the back-end process can segv or eat mem all it likes. it'll go away after generation and the cached versions will be used henceforth. -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? 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