On 08/10/2016 09:42 PM, onefang Rejected wrote: > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:27:09 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) > <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:16:03 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> >> said: >> >>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:00:01 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) >>> <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:23:33 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> >>>> said: >>>> >>>>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:29:50 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The >>>>> Rasterman) <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> one thing with your evas 3d usage... it's not real/useful to >>>>>> anyone else. if you made open source tools/apps that were >>>>>> easily usable and downloadable (without needing special >>>>>> accounts you have to pay for e.g second life) then you would >>>>>> be interesting/relevant. >>>>>> >>>>>> let me give you a sample: >>>>>> >>>>>> if you made a really nice world clock app for seeing world >>>>>> timezones, selecting yours, setting date/time etc. that even >>>>>> did sexy stuff like used topological maps of the world so >>>>>> when you zoom into an area you get some mountains/hills and >>>>>> so on... and this was part of e's settings tools or clock >>>>>> tool with calendar etc. ... well then that'd be really cool >>>>>> and useful to LOTs of people and accessible to everyone. :) >>>>>> just saying. you're emails are "i'm working on this thing.. >>>>>> here on my hard drive... it does x/y/z and will do x/y/z". >>>>>> that's not REAL to anyone. it's not accessible. it's not used >>>>>> daily thus important. :) you want evas 3d to be useful to >>>>>> your BIGGER projects you do like this, do some smaller ones >>>>>> out the front that people see and use daily. :) >>>>> >>>>> Er, my project is for Second Life, OpenSim, AND an alternative >>>>> to both, and is on Github. Your arguments are invalid. Hell, >>>>> my general idea is to make server side so efficient that by >>>>> default, anyone can run their own little server to invite their >>>>> friends to, even on their phone. I'm trying to open up 3D >>>>> virtual worlds to the masses. >>>> >>>> "that are easily downloadable and usable without special >>>> accounts". someone has to set up a server, run it, need accounts, >>>> etc. is it a tool readily usable out of the box that people >>>> actually will need/use regularly. a secondlife or quivalent is >>>> not. a terminal is. a wm is. a web browser is. ... if someone has >>>> to set up a server themselves or register accounts somewhere else >>>> at all you just failed the "useful to anyone" :) >>> >>> If you read SledjHamr.org, you'll see I have taken all of that into >>> account. Now you are just making up excuses to ignore me. >> >> count the number of people here participating in any virtual world. >> they use terminals. email clients. wm's. the number of people >> involved in virtual worlds who would even look is small at best. >> perhaps you don't like it, but i'm trying to tell you that the reason >> no one is paying attention is you do not have something they want. >> maybe others do, but no one here working on efl or e or core users >> etc. is. or almost no one. if they were, then you wouldnt be a >> periphery thing. i am not saying your work is bad or its stupid or >> anything. i'm saying that expecting relevance is dependent on things >> being relevant to others. if efl breaks terminology then that break >> becomes relevant because LOTs of people use it here and even >> elsewhere. but especially here. if evas_3d was being used in e for eg >> 3d cube desktop switching effects... it'd be relevant to a whole lot >> of people immediately. >> >> i'm not even going to look at those projects because the premise of >> them as a virtual world is not interesting or relevant to me. it is >> to you and that's great. not to me. and if you go around wondering >> why they are not paying attention then this is the primary reason. >> you have to have things in common that make the things you want be >> relevant. :) i'm trying to help you here by pointing out that to help >> the project you care about, you may have to do other side projects >> that have relevance to others to bring that to the fore. :) > > That kinda sounds like you are telling me I basically have to bribe > people to get anywhere. Do you realise that A) a 3D virtual world > system is kinda HUGE (will take years, already has), 2) it involves all > sorts of sub projects that have to work together, III) lots of little > side projects will drop out of it over the years simply due to A and > 2, D) some of these might be the "relevant to others" you seek, why > don't you look at the damn web site, and tell me which ones? There's > even a nice picture showing all of them. > > OK, since you are going to ignore my web site, I'll explain that my > design is more of a P2P thingy, no need to setup a server. It also > defaults to what ever user name your desktop already knows, and > leverages OpenSims HyperGrid protocol such that there is no need for > servers or accounts. So no need to set up servers or accounts. Also, > no one HAS to pay for Second Life or OpenSim accounts, you can, but you > don't have to, basic accounts on every one I have looked at are free, > including Second Life. Lots of OpenSim grids are completely free to > use. The number of people using SL and OS would far outweigh the > number of people using terminology, or E. Your arguments are invalid. > > I repeat, I am being ignored, for no good reason. > > When Evas_3D initially landed, I offered to help out, I recall two > things in particular I offered to help with. One was an Elementary > example, which I did actually provide. It's in the EFL repo, but was > ignored. For a long time it was the ONLY Elementary example of Evas_3D > usage in our repo, but entirely ignored. It's currently broken due to > the recent changes, I've not updated it yet, no one cares anyway, why > bother. > > The second thing I offered was to port libg3d to Evas_3D, a modular > library that supports over thirty 3D model formats. If I recall it was > initially accepted as a good thing to do, but not just yet, we had to > wait for some initial model loading code to be written, so I could > follow the example of how it should be done to fit in with the Evas_3D > team. Shortly after, I understand a different team took over Evas_3D, > and they ignored this offer entirely. > > I have created bug reports about Evas_3D, the only one that got any > actual response was the one that mentioned the missing tag in the bug > system for Evas_3D. I don't think that was the Evas_3D team though, > more the phab admin team. That missing tag was solved very quickly. > One of the bugs seems to have been "fixed" by accident, though it was > replaced be a very similar one. That particular bug does not show up > in any of the other examples, but they do in mine, coz the other > examples don't load textures in multiple models. Until this bug is > properly fixed, no Elementary Evas_3D application that uses more than a > single texture will actually work right. So how can anyone provide a > small utility that is used every day? > > The Evas_3D developers recently requested some design comments on this > list. I was the only person that actually responded on the list, and as > far as I can tell, my responses where ignored, not even any > acknowledgement that they where read. This is what leads me to think > I'm the only one outside of Samsung actually trying to use Evas_3D. > > Hell, even before Evas_3D was made public, I made it clear on this list > that I was working on trying to get EFL and a popular 3D engine to work > together. Once more, this was ignored. > > Showing 3D thumbnails in standard file requesters could actually be the > relevant useful little thing you are craving, yet you went to great > lengths to poo poo that idea. If I wasn't being ignored, people could > actually pick small things out of my huge project that could be useful, > BUT ... > > I AM BEING FUCKING IGNORED! > > I'm not fucking perfect, I'm a great programmer, but lousy at selling > things, including myself. Please stop ignoring me, just go have a > fucking look. > > Or keep ignoring me, and I'll just have to start ignoring the Evas_3D > team. Relevance works both ways. More shit would get done, for all of > us, if Evas_3D was worked on by more than a small insular Samsung > team. Evas_3D would likely already have my additional 30+ model > loaders if I wasn't being ignored, including popular model formats. > > Do you ignore other application developers coz they don't provide small > immediately useful items to the EFL devs? It's particularly galling > since I HAVE FUCKING CONTRIBUTED TO EFL AND E in quite a few ways over > the years, even stuff that's still used by everyone. > > A library is fairly useless if no application developers actually use > it. Do all application developers have to bribe EFL developers with > recently written tidbits to get any support? It's gonna take a long > time to get anywhere useful with my huge 3D virtual world project, > that's gonna take an awful lot of bribes over the years. If I have to > keep wasting my time keeping you happy with lots of little 3D bribes, > then I might as well not bother. Would be quicker for me to just go > with some other 3D engine. > > No one ever bribed me as an EFL developer, I kept contributing anyway. > As someone who's not really much of a EFL developer (occasionally I fix something really minor or backport stuff), I do occasionally look at app development and I do a reasonable amount of theme development. I guess the difference between you and most of the other app developers is that almost all the other apps have been written without having to add extra stuff to EFL. The difference is you by your own admission need big new libraries in order to get it to work and outside of applications like yours and probably game development I can't think of a whole lot of desktop Linux apps that would need something like evas_3d which is possibly why your struggling to get attention (I don't know how what and why samsung people would use them for mobile but for all I know they could want something completely different to you). Personally I'd like to use blur filters in some of my themes while there is currently some concept of them in efl they don't perform at a level thats usable. Now as part of the spirit of open source development I basically have two choices 1. Fix it myself, 2. Ask nicely and wait for someone else, as I don't have the time or knowledge to do it myself i'm doing other things while waiting for someone else, (In the mean time I have some nice proof of concept theme screenshots / a .edj to help convince people it would be a really cool thing to have but that doesn't mean that anyone else has to look at them).
So I think raster's point is currently there doesn't seem like theres many developers interested and generally to get help on open source projects you need to get developers interested. It doesn't matter so much if your end application could have 1 billion users because as a rule of thumb users use stuff and developers make it (other then maybe some of those users will possibly be developers and you may get them interested). The biggest challenge in open source is finding developers with similar interests to you to help work on things with you, currently it seems in the efl development community there are not alot of developers interested in 3D (Personally I have a partial interest I played with Qt's equivelent many moons ago, but my interest isn't to the point where its high enough up my todo list to be able to help). Probably the best example of a open source application thats very popular with users that aren't also developers is krita https://krita.org/en/ The way they work is they already have a application that is popular enough with artists that they can run a kickstarter every year and raise enough funds to pay for some developers to work full time on it. so the challenge for doing a big application thats mostly going to be used by users is to get somewhere far enough that you have something users are interested in enough to want to pay for it. Otherwise you have to split it up into small projects then do the work to convince people enough not just to be "interested" in a project but be interested and willing to help. For example my interest in 3D extends to sometimes playing around with it on a weekend. At this point it means that if I was going to have a play with 3D again i'd probably just use Qt because I know all the pieces are there and I can just mess around with the "fun bits and hooking stuff together" for reference I've been going to but haven't got to doing that for about 4 years. This is the way of open source you either A do it yourself or B bribe people occasionally if your really lucky you will find other people with a similar goal to you and they may help you but for the most part they'll probably just be interested in adding small bits and pieces on top of what you have. So if you already have a loader for 20 formats and nice ways to use them but they want to do that stuff with a 21st format maybe they'll work on that because its of significant interest to them. I for example have managed to find a open source job where 90% of the time I am payed to work on what i'm told to but theres no probs if I squeeze stuff into other times. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+9:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
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