Power depends on the composition of the layers. But as you can see how the mechanics change the setup. The electron never needs to move more than 0,6 mm at any location at the string. Take any traditional cell and for example in TS-type cells electron needs to travel up to 500-600 mm between cells and through all the current collectors.
These cells are 1-1,2 mm thick and flexible. The 'interconnect tabs' between cells in Model S pack would be about 2,3 sqm (not sqmm) and only 0,2 mm long. In a Wilde-type application we should see enough C's. DragPack questimations are too far away but as I am a member of NEDRA I really cannot say no....... 30-40C should be walk in the park. But I was not chasing the power. Reducing manufacturing costs and building a continuous manufacturing process were the targets. One interesting thing is that these cells have nearly none shortcut current (again...no foils). -Jukka 2013/10/2 Peri Hartman <[email protected]> > Seriously, Jukka, you've just made a new format cell? Do you have any > performance numbers on it yet? Cool! > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf > Of Jukka Järvinen > Sent: 02 October, 2013 11:38 AM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Pack prices likely to plummet,halve the cost > within 6yrs > > Bruce: "There are many of these pontificating pieces, that I usually pass > on, as they seem to all talk, talk, & talk about the future, and not > much tangible meat to make what they say viable." > > I have found it pretty weird that all everyone is doing is just develop > 'new things'. Not with the old things that have proven to work already. > > Anyone working in integration and building packs has this issue. All pieces > are moving all the time. If it's not the chemistry it's the mechanics. Or > BMS or anything else. So there's only few setups out there that actually > have a track record. > > At the same time all the development keeps the prices high. Investments > have to be paid. > > Chinese are making cells with about $160/kWh but now there is already > another barrier ahead which basically cuts the chances to drop the price > from there to even lower. Raw materials just cost what they cost. Also > building larger production capacity is only possible by investing to more > equipment. More investment more is needed to be paid back. 10% interest if > one is lucky. > > I thought this should be changed. And I think we have something here. > > Take the 'old tech' and then simply, simplify and simplify. Until it stops > working and then take few notches back until it works again. > > So.. I took paper separator and coated it with anode and cathode. Closed > the thing with electrolyte to conductive plastic case. A foil-less cell. > Chemistry is the same that we've used in TS cells for nearly 10 years. > LFP's. > > Ok. So I just changed the whole mechanics of the Li-ion cell and it still > works like a charm. Sorry. Half of the cost was just thrown away with the > extra pieces that are no longer needed. (pole assemblies, foils, glues, > CelGuard, slurry solvent, etc.) > > Not to mention one cell can be made 2 by 6 meters to fit in a container. Or > to the size of Model S pack. So we'll cut half out of the integration cost > too. > > Serial connections in the pack are formed just by stacking the cells on > each other. Fast and slick. BMS chipset is on the side of each 'pouch' so > Model S sized pack with 125kWh capacity is made in few minutes. I dare to > expect less than $100/kWh in big production. On pack level. > > Maybe I can tell this much now. > > I think 'big boys' should hasten their pace if they still think they can > play with their 18650's. > > -Jukka > > > > 2013/10/2 Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> > > > Yeah.... I want a plugin that I can drive from Seattle to Chicago without > > stopping, nevermind that a human can't drive that long without a few > hours > > for recharging... :p > > > > The price of lithium has already dropped to half of what it used to > be.... > > I priced out a lithium bank for my truck back in 2009 and it's half what > it > > was then, now. And probably better batteries too. Still a little much > > for me, but if it goes to half again, I might just replace the nicads and > > go lithium (and suddenly have a truck that could go to town and back, > > instead of just errands around the house). > > > > Z > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > [ref > > > > > > > > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Pack-price > s-likely-to-plummet-halve-the-cost-within-6yrs-tp4665474.html > > > ] > > > > > > There are many of these pontificating pieces, that I usually pass on, > as > > > they seem to all talk, talk, & talk about the future, and not much > > > tangible meat to make what they say viable. Six years is a bit too far > > > in the future for my liking. But occasionally, I like to throw one of > > > these out there for people to chew on. > > > > > > I was thinking, if today the price of a li-ion pack dropped to half the > > > cost, yes that would drop the purchase price of a 100mi plugin. > > > But it would make a 200mi plugin about the same price as we are paying > > > today. Then the media could say, well, 200 miles is nice, but people > > > will want a 400 mile range before they would buy one (% You can never > > > satisfy the media %). > > > > > > > > > {brucedp.150m.com} > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2013, at 05:54 AM, tomw wrote: > > > > If battery costs decrease to half of present costs, say e.g. $10k > down > > to > > > > $5k, the vehicle cost should decrease by $5k. Saying it won't due to > > > > "complex electronics" means the costs of those electronics would have > > to > > > > increase from their present cost to eat up part or all of that $5k. > > > > > > > > I think either that is a smoke screen to cover up the fact that the > car > > > > companies plan to add most of that $5k to their margins and not pass > it > > > > on > > > > to consumers, or maybe the method used to reduce costs will be to > > loosen > > > > the > > > > specs for cells so they are not as closely matched in capacity and ir > > > > (increasing manufacturing yield), and this requires a more complex > bms > > > > than > > > > the big manufacturers presently use - moving more toward a Tesla type > > > > pack. > > > - > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders > > > wherever you are > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131002/c543fb2c/ > attachment.htm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131002/e6635084 > /attachment.htm> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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