One other update on subsidies for stations - some new stations are being built *without* state funding.
- Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz <[email protected]> wrote: > > Let me give you sources for the exact numbers for up to date data, rather > than rely on my memory. > > On station cost and the % amount that the subsidy has dropped, you can either > go to the CEC website, and look at the latest funding awards, or you can look > at a summary put together by the California Fuel Cell Partnership. CaFCP does > regular station update webinars, and the latest was several weeks ago. You > can likely download the slide deck from their website (cited by you earlier) > for some good summaries, or listen to the webinar for more color. > > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is >> usually sufficient for you. >> >> On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price is NOT >> subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater competition >> they are starting to come down and will come down. But the consumer doesn’t >> pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for three years. The OEMs >> pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things like free >> car rentals). Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it >> becomes expensive after three years. >> >> The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the >> stations are not costing $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs >> are coming down. My guess is the last group of funded stations were $1.25M >> per station with four times the fueling bays, and 5-10 times the fuel >> capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent >> numbers are out there. >> >> The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s >> only 40%, but don’t trust my memory. >> >> Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t >> the right number to use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If >> you are assuming the electricity rates that you may know at charging >> stations (a guess on my part), I think that would be wrong anyway, because I >> think that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. >> >> - Mark >> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >> >>>> On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you >>>> are making common mistake >>>> in equating cost with price. >>>> >>>> Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on >>>> price, not cost. At a >>>> recent presentation by Electrify America, they said that they charge >>>> 31¢/kWh. >>> >>> Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average >>> consumer considers them to be the same thing. >>> >>> While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in >>> California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several >>> EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we >>> will ignore those. >>> >>> For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from >>> ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I suspect >>> competition will start driving the price down in some areas. >>> >>> Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is >>> much cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my >>> price/cost is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 >>> years. >>> >>> According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill >>> The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can >>> power an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by >>> California. In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 >>> million, for each station. >>> >>> Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much >>> higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ >>> $6.80. >>> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the >>> average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. >>> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs >>> where it's even cheaper. >>> >>> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps >>> half the cost of Hydrogen. >>> >>>> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that >>>> what we want? >>> >>> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means >>> it requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. Pretty >>> sure I have mentioned this several times already. >>> >>>> >>>> I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the >>>> U.S. that showed the cost >>>> of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. >>>> >>>> Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they >>>> believe that they can produce >>>> hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, given >>>> access to 3¢ solar. They >>>> are currently building a number of production plants. >>> Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make a >>> significant drop it the cost. >>> The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under >>> normal circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the >>> station, labor costs, repair costs, etc. >>> Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the Hydrogen >>> fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining. >>> I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of the >>> Hydrogen. Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to >>> subsidize the fuel stations much longer, I would expect to see and increase >>> in the price of Hydrogen. >>> At this point most EV charging stations are being paid for by private >>> companies that expect to make a profit, which is why it costs so much to >>> charge. >>> >>> The cost of the fuel centers is 10-20 times as much for Hydrogen, and >>> additionally they would require 3-4 times as much renewable infrastructure. >>> There is no way Hydrogen will EVER compete with the price of selling >>> electricity directly without subsidies. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Address messages to [email protected] >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
