Where and who is building them ? On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:30 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> One other update on subsidies for stations - some new stations are being > built *without* state funding. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz <ma...@enviropolicy.com> > wrote: > > > > Let me give you sources for the exact numbers for up to date data, > rather than rely on my memory. > > > > On station cost and the % amount that the subsidy has dropped, you can > either go to the CEC website, and look at the latest funding awards, or you > can look at a summary put together by the California Fuel Cell Partnership. > CaFCP does regular station update webinars, and the latest was several > weeks ago. You can likely download the slide deck from their website (cited > by you earlier) for some good summaries, or listen to the webinar for more > color. > > > > > > - Mark > > > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > >> On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz <ma...@enviropolicy.com> > wrote: > >> > >> You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that > is usually sufficient for you. > >> > >> On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price > is NOT subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater > competition they are starting to come down and will come down. But the > consumer doesn’t pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for three > years. The OEMs pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” > (things like free car rentals). Most lease, but if you bought, like I did > for my first one, it becomes expensive after three years. > >> > >> The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but > the stations are not costing $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but > costs are coming down. My guess is the last group of funded stations were > $1.25M per station with four times the fueling bays, and 5-10 times the > fuel capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the > recent numbers are out there. > >> > >> The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think > it’s only 40%, but don’t trust my memory. > >> > >> Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) > isn’t the right number to use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the > station. If you are assuming the electricity rates that you may know at > charging stations (a guess on my part), I think that would be wrong anyway, > because I think that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. > >> > >> - Mark > >> > >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> > >>>> On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think > you are making common mistake > >>>> in equating cost with price. > >>>> > >>>> Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be > based on price, not cost. At a > >>>> recent presentation by Electrify America, they said that they charge > 31¢/kWh. > >>> > >>> Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the > average consumer considers them to be the same thing. > >>> > >>> While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in > California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several > EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we > will ignore those. > >>> > >>> For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere > from ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I > suspect competition will start driving the price down in some areas. > >>> > >>> Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity > is much cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my > price/cost is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 > years. > >>> > >>> According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill > >>> The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which > can power an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by > California. In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 > million, for each station. > >>> > >>> Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much > higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ > $6.80. > >>> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying > the average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. > >>> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging > EVs where it's even cheaper. > >>> > >>> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, > perhaps half the cost of Hydrogen. > >>> > >>>> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t > that what we want? > >>> > >>> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which > means it requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. > Pretty sure I have mentioned this several times already. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in > the U.S. that showed the cost > >>>> of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. > >>>> > >>>> Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they > believe that they can produce > >>>> hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, > given access to 3¢ solar. They > >>>> are currently building a number of production plants. > >>> Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make > a significant drop it the cost. > >>> The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under > normal circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the > station, labor costs, repair costs, etc. > >>> Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the > Hydrogen fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining. > >>> I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of > the Hydrogen. Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to > subsidize the fuel stations much longer, I would expect to see and increase > in the price of Hydrogen. > >>> At this point most EV charging stations are being paid for by private > companies that expect to make a profit, which is why it costs so much to > charge. > >>> > >>> The cost of the fuel centers is 10-20 times as much for Hydrogen, and > additionally they would require 3-4 times as much renewable > infrastructure. There is no way Hydrogen will EVER compete with the price > of selling electricity directly without subsidies. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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