FCEV have been available in California since 2008, that's nearly as as modern EVs. The Tesla S came out in 2012, at that time there were at least 8 other EVs for sale in the USA. Ford Focus EV($39,995), Ford Transit Connect($58,000), Misubishi i-Miev($27,900), Honda Fit EV($36,665), Nissan Leaf ($35,200), Wheego LiFe ($32,995), Toyota RAV4 EV ($49,800), and the Coda sedan ($37,250) Granted most were only available in California and in limited qunatities, although most (if not all) out sold FCEVs in California in 2012.
My mistake about the number of H2 fueling stations, I hadn't looked this up since 2017, apparently they built 5 new stations since then. Of course in that same time frame they installed ~30,000 public charging stations. They might open 1-2 new H2 stations in the next year or so. They have opened ~17,000 public EV charging stations in the last year (During COVID!!). The rate they are opening public chargin stations is accelerating. At the rate they are currently building H2 stations, it will take them 50 years to build as many H2 stations as the number of public EV charging stations that will open tomorrow. Clearly H2 infrastructure is catching up [rolls eyes] I'll grant you that consumers, in general, don't care about effeciency, but they do care about costs. If H2 is made using electricity and it requires 4x as much electricity per mile, then the cost to the consumer will be at least 4 times as much, plus markup. Even when using public charging stations, that typically csot 2x-3x as much as charging at home, H2 currently cost 2-3x as much per mile, which makes it 5-10x as much as charging at home. Of course, myself and many others on this list, have solar panels at home which makes fuel cost per mile effective zero (my panels paid for themselves years ago) When comparing weight, I ment vehicles with similar capabilities, not similar names. The closest EV (capability wise) to the Honda Clarity is the Tesla Model 3 long range, they have similar passenger volume, simlar cargo volume, similar range and similar weight. The Tesla weighs 120 lbs more (~3% heavier), 7 miles less EPA range (2%), 5% less passenger volume (the tesla has more head room front and back and more front leg room, but less rear legroom), and the tesla has 5% more cargo volume. My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key August 23, 2021 5:52 PM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <[email protected]> wrote: > A few responses: > > FCEVs are certainly earlier stage than EVs. Costs are coming down quickly. > But to the consumer, > FCEVs aren’t necessary more expensive. For the cost of a Tesla S, the only > one out when I bought my > first FCEV, I could buy at least two FCEVs, taking into account factory and > other incentives. > > Currently, are they more expensive? I don’t know. Taking into account > infrastructure, particularly > at scale, FCEVs are cheaper. To a consumer, only if they need to put in > charging or fueling > infrastructure. > > Cost to operate - you give no costs, only efficiency numbers. fCEV owners pay > no nothing for fuel > for the first three years. If they lease, nothing. We own one, and lease one. > If you own, after the > first three years, it’s VERY expensive, though costs are coming down. > Maintenance is part of cost > to own. Some manufacturers include it, some don’t. > > I don’t know operating costs of an EV, so can’t compare. One company charges > 31¢/kWh IIRC. > > Efficiency - if your question is “to the consumer” it’s not as simple as > miles per kWh. Do > consumers even know that? What about time efficiency? Isn’t my time spent > charging worth something? > For some, sure they charge at home and it works for them. For others that’s > not real world. BTW, > efficiencies on both fuel cell and electrolyzers are increasing quickly. And > then, you need to ask > “under what conditions?”. What’s the efficiency at 0 degrees F? 110 degrees F? > > Infrastructure- Yes, currently infrastructure for H2 needs to be better. For > a consumer, if there’s > convenient fueling for you, there’s no problem. If not, it’s not for you. > Same as the problem was > for BEVs as few years ago. > > But stations are *not* being closed. If fact, the rollout of stations is > accelerating, in > California and internationally. > > Weight - your claim that they are the same was interesting, so I looked up > the weight of the Honda > Clarity Fuel cell and the Honda Clarity BEV. They *are* the same weight, but > the BEV has an EPA > range of 48 miles while the FCEV has a range of 366 or so. Of course that > changes a LOT for the BEV > (and not in a good way) when you have extremes of temperature. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV. Apparently not. >> >>> Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build, >> >> An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still >> there (still needs an >> electric motor/controller/batteries/etc) >> You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more >> of the fuel cell, >> tank(s), etc. >> >>> Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really? >> >> Compared to an BEV? Yes, absolutely, much higher. It gets even worse if you >> use green H2 since it >> requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile to make the H2 vs charging >> an EV. >> >>> Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom? >> >> Miles per kWh. To EVERYONE. >> Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers >> are also around 90%, >> equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity (and that can be >> improved) >> Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around >> 60%, which means a >> combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any energy used to >> compress the H2, which >> front what I've read brings the total storage efficiency down to around >> 25-30%...at best. You'll >> also have additional losses charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV. >> >>> No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to >>> a station and 5 minutes >>> to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty . >> >> Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA. There are >> zero H2 stations anywhere >> else in the USA. >> Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for >> every public H2 station. >> This number is increasing because while they are constantly installing new >> EV charging stations, >> they are shutting down H2 stations. >> For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the >> USA, while Public EV >> charging stations are becoming common acrost most of the USA. Extremely >> common on the coasts. >> >> As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x >> as much electricity per >> mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV) >> >> The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable >> BEVs, so that's not an >> advantage to either. >> >> They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling >> a FCEV, and you can >> hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read every H2 fueling >> station requires a trained >> individual to connect the hose. Waiting for him/her to show up could >> elliminate the remaining time >> advantage. >> >> Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM. >> Let me put it simply, what advantages do YOU see to ANYONE other than the >> folks that make H2? >> How do you see these advantages making FCEV economically viable? >> Viable enough to justify creating a nation wide H2 fueling infracstructure >> from scratch? >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to [email protected] >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
