Mark, I gave you an apples to apples comparison of range using a fixed wholesale price for electricity for producing hydrogen via electrolysis versus that same amount of electricity at that price to power an EV for respective distances. The electrolysis percentage is from Wiki, which I have seen you use before.
Comparing a 2030 price for hydrogen to todays' retail price for electricity at an EV charging station is ludicrous and evasive!!! If the price of hydrogen at a refueling station drops that low, so will the price for electricity for an EV and it will be reflected at the charging station. Even if you get the electrolysis up to 100% efficiency, the BEV still goes much further on the same amount of electricity. BTW, the quoted capacity of the tanks used in the 2020 Mirai are 5.6 kg total with quoted ranges of 357 and 402 miles, for the two editions Toyota sells. Adjusting the 311 mile range by increasing the size of the tank capacity used from 5.0 to 5.6 kg brings the range up to 348 miles and compares well to the 357 mile range for the limited edition. 0 to 60 mph is quoted as 9.2 seconds for both vehicles. You still have not addressed all my questions from previous submittals on this topic. On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 3:46 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > I have no idea whether any of your calcs or most assumptions are correct. > > But I’m not sure what “80%” number that you say I’ve referenced is. To what > are you referring? > > Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are > making common mistake in equating cost with price. > > Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on > price, not cost. At a recent presentation by Electrify America, they said > that they charge 31¢/kWh. I don’t know what other vendors charge, or whether > this is based on a sustainable business model, or just an “introductory” > price. They did say (or at least I thought they said) that their pricing > model is based on the price of gasoline, which I know will make some heads > spin. > > I will also point out, that if you are talking renewables, the cost of > electricity varies significantly based on geography, time of day, etc.. > Averages vary for geographic regions. > > And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what > we want? > > I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the U.S. > that showed the cost of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. > > Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they believe > that they can produce hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive > with diesel, given access to 3¢ solar. They are currently building a number > of production plants. > > Your DOE reference sounds very old, as it refers to a 2015 goal, when FCEVs > were just getting in the road. > > Recently, DOE announced a goal of $1.50/kg by 2030(?). > > I hope that information helps. > > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > > wrote: > > > > Okay, one last bite at the apple. > > > > This quote came from a Wiki article: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water > > " Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current > > best processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) > > which have an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%,[31][32][33] > > producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg) > > requires 50–55 kW⋅h (180–200 MJ) of electricity. At an electricity > > cost of $0.06/kW·h, as set out in the US Department of Energy hydrogen > > production targets for 2015,[34] the hydrogen cost is $3/kg." > > > > There is the 80% that Mark has often mentioned. There is the cost of > > electricity at $0.06/kwhr producing hydrogen using 50 kwh (the lower > > number in the range). There is this statement from Toyota: "With a > > tank capacity of five kilos, the MIRAI achieves a range of 500 km." > > from this link: https://h2.live/en/fuelcell-cars/toyota-mirai/ > > > > So what happens when we crunch the numbers? > > > > 500 km = 311 miles > > At full tank capacity, 5 kilos x 50 kwhr = 250 kwhr just to produce 5 > > kg of hydrogen to go 311 miles. > > My Tesla Model 3 gets about 4 mile / kwhr on the open road. 4 > > miles/kwhr x 250 kwhr = 1,000 miles. > > > > The cost of electricity is $0.06/kwhr x 250 kwhr = $15.00 > > > > FCEV of 311 miles vs BEV range of 1,000 miles on the same amount of > > electricity and that does not include the energy cost of compression > > and transportation of hydrogen. > > > > When I crunch the numbers for an ICE at $3/gallon and $0.12/kwhr, The > > cost of electricity goes up to $30 and the amount of gasoline goes to > > 10 gallons. For a 50 mile/gallon ICE, that's a 500 mile range. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org _______________________________________________ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
