Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Le 20-mars-07, à 13:02, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : > > > > On 3/20/07, *Bruno Marchal* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Le 01-mars-07, à 00:35, Brent Meeker a écrit : > > > Brent Meeker quoted: > > "Atheism is a belief system the way "Off" is a TV channel." > > --- George Carlin > > > > Carlin makes the typical confusion between atheism and agnosticism. > > An atheist has indeed a rich belief system: > 1) he believes that God does not exist (unlike an agnostic who > does not > believe that God exists: that makes a huge difference) > 2) he generally believes in a material or Aristotelian Universe > (despite its contradiction with comp, or with QM, or with some > physically reproducible facts, and despite any proof or argument > beyond > the Aristotelian Matter reification.) > > > > 1) Do you believe we should also be agnostic about Santa Claus and > the Tooth Fairy? If so, should the balance of belief in these > entities (i.e. belief for/against) be similar to that in the case of > God? I ask in all seriousness as you are a logician and there *is* a > huge difference, logically if not practically, between atheism and > agnosticism. > > > > > Of course (cf Brent's comment) we are on the verge of a purely > vocabulary discussion. If you define God by a big white male sitting on > a cloud, there is a case of comparing "God" and "Santa Klaus". If you > define "god" by "ultimate meaning or ultimate theory of everything > including persons and feeling, quanta and qualia, ...", or even more > generally by "god" = "truth" about "us", then it is different. Now most > religions accept or even define God by its transcendance and > unnameability,
A god defined solely by that would not be accepted by any of the major religions, except perhaps Bhuddism which doesn't include gods. The Abrahamic religions add that God is a person, is beneficient, is demanding, and answers prayers. These are defining characteristics of theism. Which is why I was careful to specify a theist God. The etymology of "atheist" implies that it is this religion of theism that is not believed. >making "truth" an elementary lobian machine/entity's God, > and this is enough for coming back to serious theology. Serious theology for Bruno seems to be that of Paul Tillich: God is whatever you consider fundamental. To me that seems like an attempt at theological jujitsu to convert atheists by redefining words. >The gap between > truth about a machine and provability by that machine already > illustrates the necessity of distinguishing the scientific and religious > discourse of machines. Pure theology can be (re)defined by "truth minus > science". Then, lobian theology is controlled by the G/G* mathematical > gap, and their intensional (modal) variants. > Talking or acting or doing anything in the name of God leads to > inconsistency and most probably suffering. What difference does "in the name of make"? That seems to attribute magic power to phrases. >In the scientific (= > doubting) discourse, we can use use the term "God" like we can use the > term "first person", but we cannot talk *in* those names. > > > > > 2) I don't know that atheists are much more likely to believe in a > material universe than other people. > > > I have never met an atheist who does not believe in primitive matter. > Well, today even theist believe in primitive matter, with few exception. > Now, if an atheist does not believe in primitive matter, he certainly > believe in something, all right. And if he does fundamental research, he > certainly believe in something fundamental, and then if he is a lobian > machine, then it can be shown that that fundamental thing has to be > unnameable and god-like, even if it is "just" a pagan notion of god. I can appreciate that the fundamental thing (if there is one) must be unameable and god-like (omnipresent)...but not God-like (person, answer prayers, beneficient) and not God. Brent Meeker --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
