Bruno, those 'idealistic' definitions from Leibnitz and Descartes are not 
experienced in -
- what is called usually as "science". Look at the "Laws" of physics, does 
engineering doubt them? The statements of 'logic', arithmetic, etc. etc. are 
all " believed" as FIRM laws. Now that is what I call 'reductionist" = to 
consider a topical limited cut from the totality for the relevant (?) 
observations WITHIN such (what I call: model), and draw conclusions if there 
were nothing else to consider. That is what Academia (tenure-Nobel) does and 
what - as I wrote - most editing companies accept for publication. This is 
close to what young minds get brainwashed into in college education. e.g. 
Physics 101 etc. (Neurology not exempted).
Absolutely different from what you and I said. No 'flexible mind' allowed. 
I hope you accept "my terms" for 'reductionist science' <G>,  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bruno Marchal 
  Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:36 AM
  Subject: Re: Believing ...

  Le 21-mars-07, à 22:18, John Mikes a écrit :

  > Academic - tenure - even Nobel type conventional science is 
  > rfeductionistic
  > in this sense.. I agree: "SCIENCE" should be as you identified it.

  Thanks for telling. I thought, a bit naively perhaps, that after 
  Descartes and Popper, say, it was part of common knowledge that 
  science, properly understood, is an arrow from doubts to ... more and 
  more doubts, and cannot, thus, be reductionist.

  You know, people like Leibniz and even the young Hilbert thought that a 
  machine could exist capable of answering, at least in principle, all 
  question about numbers, actually all question about machine as well, 
  including herself. Now we know that we can interview machine as 
  powerful as we want, as far as they remain self-referentially correct, 
  they remain extraordinarily modest. If you ask to such a machine if she 
  will ever say a bullshit, well, the young one crash immediately 
  (transforming herself into a universal dovetailer btw), the older one 
  answer that either they will say a bullshit, or that they ...  might 
  say a bullshit(*).


  (*) For the modalist: "I will prove a falsity or it is consistent that 
  I will prove a falsity"

  Bf v DBf    (same as Dt -> ~BDt).

  With the older modal notation:

  []f v <>[]f   (same as <>t -> ~[]<>t )

  B = [] = Godel purely arithmetical provability predicate (Beweisbar)
  D = <> = ~B~= ~[]~
  Recall that, as Aristotle already got, ~B = D~ and ~D = B~ (in the 
  alethic mode: not necessary p = possible not p ; not possible p = 
  necessary not p. See my older modal posts.


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7:44 AM

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