Le 21-mars-07, à 15:48, John M a écrit :

> I have never met an atheist who does not believe in primitive matter. 
> Well, today even theist believe in primitive matter, with few 
> exception.
> Now, if an atheist does not believe in primitive matter, he certainly 
> believe in something, all right. And if he does fundamental research, 
> he certainly believe in something fundamental, and then if he is a 
> lobian machine, then it can be shown that that fundamental thing has 
> to be unnameable and god-like, even if it is "just" a pagan notion of 
> god.
> Bruno
> ---------------------------------------------
> I cannot offer myself as the example you missed so far, because - as I 
> explained - I do not consider myself conform to MY definition of an 
> atheist.
> Theists do beluieve in primitive matter, created by their God. The 
> previous Pope even undersigned to the Big Bang (some version).
> *
> Being a "he" you pointed to (rejcted though as 'atheist') I really do 
> not ' believe. What I
> find "logically not so repugnant - as either the reductionist science 
> fables" nor the religious hearsay - is a 'story' and I call it my 
>  "NARRATIVE"  to just speak about an origination of our world and 
> uncountable others in a less nausiating way.
> And yes, you may call my 'plenitude' a 'god', outside (not above) OUR 
> mother-nature AND unidentified to the limit of minimum information. 
> Not sitting as an old man on cloud.
> John M

OK then, except that I think that you confuse "science" and "scientism 
or fake science". I just don't see how "science" can be reductionist. 
Science is "opening the eyes and doubting what we see".
When a scientist thinks he knows the truth (or acts like he/she was 
thinking that) then he looses his scientific attitude.  Be it in 
biology, astronomy, theology or even in astrology, or whatever. In 
science, like in conscience, public lack of doubt is akin to madness. 
This is provable (indeed it is a form of Godel second incompleteness 
theorem) for machines or lobian entities.



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