Kim,
I enjoyed your bilingual blurb 'around' music, as I guess.
Is mathematique (numbers?) something like music? a gift one either has or
not?
David Bohm said (and I have great esteem for the man) that numbers are human
creations.
If Bruno - and his cohorts - state that everything is just numbers -
integers in long series - (I still don't know if WITH functions between
them, or just the balnk series?) - I figure it after Bohm that they found a
'tool' in this human invention to use as the otherwise inaccessible
'materialization' of the feeling 'reality' or call it 'essence of the world'
etc., - (materialization meant in a 'higher' sense than the figment
(misconcept) of the physicists' world of matter/energy(?) in their
explanations of accessed and misunderstood phenomena).
Your (and maybe mine) 'materialization' is "music". I do not realize it into
tunes but it in a vague sense of "IT" - musical experience is closest, - I
figure: as Bruno's 'numbers' - and your 'ever existed' Eroica Symphony is
just a notion of 'a' realization...

If I may use the pronoun: "WE" have a hard time in our 'musical'
predisposition to switch to numbers, even more so to express what we
feel/think in the 'words' created for a baseless communication in the
superficial average mental activity of humans.
When I play I am absorbed, no numbers, no politix
even no personal malaises - only the music. If my fingers goof a passage
what I (innerly) heard right, I am desperate.

This 'musical comp' IS our reality, not 'understood' or
'explainable' because these terms work only "in words". Another
'plane'(religion?) in the human - (sub?)conscious existence.
There are many such 'planes' and it is hard to switch.

What do you think? Bruno? Stathis? and my eternal critic: Brent?

Musicalistically yours

John M

*> La vérité sort de la bouche des ignorants. (JM)<*


On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Kim Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> On 02/12/2008, at 4:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Kim,
> >
> >
> > On 28 Nov 2008, at 09:54, Kim Jones wrote:
> >
> >
> >> How is it - dans les termes comprehensibles a un gamin comme moi -
> >> that because I am a machine, SANS des MATHEMATIQUES, there is no
> >> substratum of primitive physical materiality?
> >>
> >> If you can explain this dans des termes simples pour une fois je te
> >> serais infiniment reconnaisant
> >
> >
> >
> > To explain that the world is (mostly) mathematical (and then psycho or
> > bio or theo logical), without mathematics, can be demanding.
>
>
> OK - accepted; I get this from mathematicians and physicists all the
> time - and I have quite a few as friends. Nevertheless, if there was
> one human on the planet who could do it, or at the very best make a
> heroic attempt at it, I reckon YOU'RE THE ONE!!!!!
>
> Court jesters like me cannot understand mathematics, but we understand
> the 'realities' described by mathematics through a kind of sixth
> sense. We are also very good judges of character. Tu peux te sauver,
> mais tu ne peux pas m'eschapper!!!
>
>
> >
> > What could help is the Mandelbrot Set. I will think about it.
>
>
>
> I LOVE the Mandelbrot set. I intuitively feel that reality is fractal.
> I do not know how I 'know' this. Please explain to me how I can know
> something without really knowing something
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Also, I don't want to bore the list too much,
>
>
> I don't think all these 'brains the size of a planet' are being bored
> by a different way of looking at the same data for once. Hopefully
> they welcome it.
>
>
>
>
> > and there are already
> > many posts, so I will go extremely slowly.
>
>
> Yes, there are many monks hunched over their manuscripts in cloisters
> racking their brains by candle-light, trying to see in the data what
> they have long ago decided is already there.....
>
>
> >
> >
> > You may be disappointed.
>
>
> That nobody can explain reality without using mathematics? But reality
> already IS - I don't see algebra floating around inside my living
> room!! Maybe the universe is most ACCURATELY described in the
> (devil's) details using the numbers but what about SIMPLIFYING it all
> for once?
>
> Surely a FIVE YEAR OLD can sit at this table and appreciate some of
> this stuff? Maybe a five year old can actually PUT something on the
> table to be considered because the brains-the-size-of-a-planet have
> forgotten that simplicity is a much more effective force for good than
> complexity.
>
> There is much FOGWEED growing on this list. Maybe reality is too
> simple to understand - as opposed to too complex. Let's get into a bit
> of jardinage!!!
>
>
>
>
> > In general mystic-open people like the
> > conclusion,
>
>
>
> Well - I'm not into mystery, that's for sure. I don't trust people who
> perpetuate mysteries. They are covering something up!!! I still expect
> the conclusion to follow from the reasoning, but I happen to believe
> that once you have cogitated on the mathematics, the output CAN be
> described in plain English (or French)
>
> Why should it be that anybody devoid of a PhD in higher mathematics
> and logic and computer science should be locked out of this
> discussion? As I said to Russell recently, "I worship at the feet of
> anybody who can understand this (mathematical) stuff"
>
> BUT
>
> I happen to believe (in my humble foolishness) that you can still
> communicate these (really quite) momentous ideas in a way that the
> 99.9999999% of humanity who don't inhabit universities for most of
> their lives can understand
>
>
>
>
>
> > but dislike the hypotheses and the methodology
> > (reasoning).
>
>
>
> If I could bloodywell understand it I might start to like it! Ain't my
> problem. It's YOURS
>
> I didn't ask to be born with a desire to understand the fabric of
> reality. It afflicts me like a DISEASE
>
>
>
>
> > The rationalists like the hypotheses and the reasoning,
> > but few appreciate the conclusion.
>
>
> That's because everybody only wants to see his own ideas confirmed by
> the reasoning. As Colin Hales says, scientists predict everything
> except a scientist.
>
> Even scientists want to be loved and appreciated, I guess
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Are you really serious?
>
>
> As serious as any fool ever gets, I suppose. I imagine the attempt
> will be fun. New advances in neuroplasticity suggest that as we age,
> we should attempt to do the SAME things differently, because that way
> the neurons stay healthy.
>
> Some older people haven't learnt a new skill in 50 years. These are
> the ones who are merely confirming constantly their own conclusions
> under the guise of "doing science"
>
>
>
>
> > I could send a post per month, taking
> > everything at zero.
>
>
> That's fine. This is perhaps your BIGGEST challenge dear Bruno. You
> need to take it slowly and ENJOY the challenge my dear
>
>
> >
> >
> > Have you an intuition that consciousness is not material?
>
>
>
> Of course! If we take every score of Beethoven's 3rd symphony and burn
> them - if we trash every orchestral recording ever made of it - if we
> get every conductor and player who could remember parts of it or all
> of it and ERASED their memories of it or just murdered them outright
>
>
> I still believe Beethoven's 3rd symphony STILL exists. You will
> doubtless say "in Platonia"
>
>
> Music IS a bunch of mathematical objects spinning in their own space.
> Why I cry for some reason when I see Garrett Lisi's E8 thingy. It's
> MUSIC goddam it!!!
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > In case you were not serious, it is ok also.
>
>
> I am UNSERIOUSLY SERIOUS. I am not so "serious" that I have any pre-
> conceived notions about what I want. When I look in the mirror in the
> morning I always say to the guy looking back "Who the fuck are you????"
>
> I exist in an INFINITUDE OF INSTANTIATIONS IN THE MULTIVERSE
>
> I believe they are all talking at you now!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> > But I like to share, and
> > others could benefit.
>
>
> That is the hallmark of a true teacher, somebody I have only the
> highest repect for
>
>
>
>
>
> > Who knows, you could be the one finding the
> > fatal flaw!
>
>
> You are too kind monsieur
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bruno
> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >
> > La vérité sort de la bouche des débutants.
>
>
> Genial. Faites-entrer les gosses!!!!!!!!
>
>
> Kim
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
>
>
> >
>

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