Kim, I enjoyed your bilingual blurb 'around' music, as I guess. Is mathematique (numbers?) something like music? a gift one either has or not? David Bohm said (and I have great esteem for the man) that numbers are human creations. If Bruno - and his cohorts - state that everything is just numbers - integers in long series - (I still don't know if WITH functions between them, or just the balnk series?) - I figure it after Bohm that they found a 'tool' in this human invention to use as the otherwise inaccessible 'materialization' of the feeling 'reality' or call it 'essence of the world' etc., - (materialization meant in a 'higher' sense than the figment (misconcept) of the physicists' world of matter/energy(?) in their explanations of accessed and misunderstood phenomena). Your (and maybe mine) 'materialization' is "music". I do not realize it into tunes but it in a vague sense of "IT" - musical experience is closest, - I figure: as Bruno's 'numbers' - and your 'ever existed' Eroica Symphony is just a notion of 'a' realization...
If I may use the pronoun: "WE" have a hard time in our 'musical' predisposition to switch to numbers, even more so to express what we feel/think in the 'words' created for a baseless communication in the superficial average mental activity of humans. When I play I am absorbed, no numbers, no politix even no personal malaises - only the music. If my fingers goof a passage what I (innerly) heard right, I am desperate. This 'musical comp' IS our reality, not 'understood' or 'explainable' because these terms work only "in words". Another 'plane'(religion?) in the human - (sub?)conscious existence. There are many such 'planes' and it is hard to switch. What do you think? Bruno? Stathis? and my eternal critic: Brent? Musicalistically yours John M *> La vérité sort de la bouche des ignorants. (JM)<* On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Kim Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 02/12/2008, at 4:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > > Hi Kim, > > > > > > On 28 Nov 2008, at 09:54, Kim Jones wrote: > > > > > >> How is it - dans les termes comprehensibles a un gamin comme moi - > >> that because I am a machine, SANS des MATHEMATIQUES, there is no > >> substratum of primitive physical materiality? > >> > >> If you can explain this dans des termes simples pour une fois je te > >> serais infiniment reconnaisant > > > > > > > > To explain that the world is (mostly) mathematical (and then psycho or > > bio or theo logical), without mathematics, can be demanding. > > > OK - accepted; I get this from mathematicians and physicists all the > time - and I have quite a few as friends. Nevertheless, if there was > one human on the planet who could do it, or at the very best make a > heroic attempt at it, I reckon YOU'RE THE ONE!!!!! > > Court jesters like me cannot understand mathematics, but we understand > the 'realities' described by mathematics through a kind of sixth > sense. We are also very good judges of character. Tu peux te sauver, > mais tu ne peux pas m'eschapper!!! > > > > > > What could help is the Mandelbrot Set. I will think about it. > > > > I LOVE the Mandelbrot set. I intuitively feel that reality is fractal. > I do not know how I 'know' this. Please explain to me how I can know > something without really knowing something > > > > > > > > > Also, I don't want to bore the list too much, > > > I don't think all these 'brains the size of a planet' are being bored > by a different way of looking at the same data for once. Hopefully > they welcome it. > > > > > > and there are already > > many posts, so I will go extremely slowly. > > > Yes, there are many monks hunched over their manuscripts in cloisters > racking their brains by candle-light, trying to see in the data what > they have long ago decided is already there..... > > > > > > > > You may be disappointed. > > > That nobody can explain reality without using mathematics? But reality > already IS - I don't see algebra floating around inside my living > room!! Maybe the universe is most ACCURATELY described in the > (devil's) details using the numbers but what about SIMPLIFYING it all > for once? > > Surely a FIVE YEAR OLD can sit at this table and appreciate some of > this stuff? Maybe a five year old can actually PUT something on the > table to be considered because the brains-the-size-of-a-planet have > forgotten that simplicity is a much more effective force for good than > complexity. > > There is much FOGWEED growing on this list. Maybe reality is too > simple to understand - as opposed to too complex. Let's get into a bit > of jardinage!!! > > > > > > In general mystic-open people like the > > conclusion, > > > > Well - I'm not into mystery, that's for sure. I don't trust people who > perpetuate mysteries. They are covering something up!!! I still expect > the conclusion to follow from the reasoning, but I happen to believe > that once you have cogitated on the mathematics, the output CAN be > described in plain English (or French) > > Why should it be that anybody devoid of a PhD in higher mathematics > and logic and computer science should be locked out of this > discussion? As I said to Russell recently, "I worship at the feet of > anybody who can understand this (mathematical) stuff" > > BUT > > I happen to believe (in my humble foolishness) that you can still > communicate these (really quite) momentous ideas in a way that the > 99.9999999% of humanity who don't inhabit universities for most of > their lives can understand > > > > > > > but dislike the hypotheses and the methodology > > (reasoning). > > > > If I could bloodywell understand it I might start to like it! Ain't my > problem. It's YOURS > > I didn't ask to be born with a desire to understand the fabric of > reality. It afflicts me like a DISEASE > > > > > > The rationalists like the hypotheses and the reasoning, > > but few appreciate the conclusion. > > > That's because everybody only wants to see his own ideas confirmed by > the reasoning. As Colin Hales says, scientists predict everything > except a scientist. > > Even scientists want to be loved and appreciated, I guess > > > > > > > > > Are you really serious? > > > As serious as any fool ever gets, I suppose. I imagine the attempt > will be fun. New advances in neuroplasticity suggest that as we age, > we should attempt to do the SAME things differently, because that way > the neurons stay healthy. > > Some older people haven't learnt a new skill in 50 years. These are > the ones who are merely confirming constantly their own conclusions > under the guise of "doing science" > > > > > > I could send a post per month, taking > > everything at zero. > > > That's fine. This is perhaps your BIGGEST challenge dear Bruno. You > need to take it slowly and ENJOY the challenge my dear > > > > > > > > Have you an intuition that consciousness is not material? > > > > Of course! If we take every score of Beethoven's 3rd symphony and burn > them - if we trash every orchestral recording ever made of it - if we > get every conductor and player who could remember parts of it or all > of it and ERASED their memories of it or just murdered them outright > > > I still believe Beethoven's 3rd symphony STILL exists. You will > doubtless say "in Platonia" > > > Music IS a bunch of mathematical objects spinning in their own space. > Why I cry for some reason when I see Garrett Lisi's E8 thingy. It's > MUSIC goddam it!!! > > > > > > > > > In case you were not serious, it is ok also. > > > I am UNSERIOUSLY SERIOUS. I am not so "serious" that I have any pre- > conceived notions about what I want. When I look in the mirror in the > morning I always say to the guy looking back "Who the fuck are you????" > > I exist in an INFINITUDE OF INSTANTIATIONS IN THE MULTIVERSE > > I believe they are all talking at you now!!!! > > > > > > > But I like to share, and > > others could benefit. > > > That is the hallmark of a true teacher, somebody I have only the > highest repect for > > > > > > > Who knows, you could be the one finding the > > fatal flaw! > > > You are too kind monsieur > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Bruno > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > La vérité sort de la bouche des débutants. > > > Genial. Faites-entrer les gosses!!!!!!!! > > > Kim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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