On 30 Apr 2009, at 19:39, Brent Meeker wrote:
> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 30 Apr 2009, at 15:49, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>> That is weird.
>> I think that you believe that a rock implements computations, because
>> you believe a computation can be decomposed in tiny computations, but
>> this is not true, you need much more. You need a universal machine
>> which links and complexify the states in a precise way.
>> Some alive beings do some computations (like some flowers compute
>> part of the Fibonacci function). But again, this is sophisticated and
>> took time to appear. Waves do analog computations, hardly universal
>> digital one, or only when put in some very special condition.
>> Interesting and rich computations are relatively rare and exceptional
>> until they self-multiplied, like amoebas.
> Does the universe compute its states?
Open problem, but most probably not, given that the universe
appearance emerge from a statistic bearing on a infinite set of
(finite and infinite) computations.
> How is the evolution of the wave
> function of the universe or of a flower not a computation?
For a reason similar to the fact that there is no algorithm capable of
predicting if you will see an electron up or down when prepared in the
state up+down. But comp makes the "wave" itself resulting from
apparent (for the 1-person) arithmetical collapses.
>> Nor do I believe the filmed movie graph do any computation, it "read"
>> a description of one, but does not link them logically in real time.
>> Today, genetical systems, brains, and computer (human or engineered)
>> do "concrete" computations.
> But that seems like introducing a "magic" similar to the magic of
> physical existence, except now it is the magic of computational
Ok, but the magic of computational connection can be entirely reduce
to the magic of succession, addition and multiplication of positive
And it is magic, but it is a magic which explains why it has to be a
magic. A TOE which does not postulate the natural numbers is a TOE
without natural numbers. We have to assume the numbers, they cannot be
reduced to anything simpler/
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to email@example.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
For more options, visit this group at