On 2/18/2011 7:06 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com
<mailto:peterdjo...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com
<mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Correct me if I am wrong but I think we have established some
things we
> agree on:
>
> Consciousness is informational
No
> There are more ways to have disorder than order
Yes
> Bayesian reasoning is a good approach in matters of truth
> The universe could be a second old, and we would have no way of
telling
Sort of.
> White rabbits are not commonly seen
Yes
> This universe appears to follow laws having a short description
Yes
> Evolution requires non-chaotic universes
>
> Where I think we disagree is on assumptions related to measure, of a
> universe's initial conditions vs. a universe's laws. I agree
there are very
> many possibilities for what my next moment of experience might
bring, yet of
> all the strange things I could observe, the universe doesn't
often surprise,
> laws seem to be obeyed. It is as if there is some equation
balancing two
> extremes, and we see the result of who wins: universes with
simple laws (few
> possibilities) but random initial conditions (many
possibilities) vs.
> universes with complex or random laws (many possibilities) but
with ordered
> initial conditions (few possibilities).
>
> Universes which are ruled by chaotic or unpredictable laws with
white
> rabbits present probably also prevent life from evolving.
However as you
> mentioned, observers may be part of the initial conditions for
such a
> universe.
"initial conditions" only come into where you have a temporal
structure, and that only applies to some corners of Platonia
Perhaps consciousness is only possible in universes with a temporal
structure over which the computation within the observer's mind is
feasible.
> There are many possibilities for the laws, but few possibilities
> for the initial conditions.
>
> Our universe does not seem to be that way, however, owing to the
lack of
> white rabbits. Our universe's laws seem simple, and life had to
evolve from
> initial conditions for which there could have been many
possibilities.
>
> The question should then be, which side of the equation wins out
most often?
> Every possible universe has its laws and initial conditions,
for which
> there are many possibilities. The two must be considered
together. For
> this universe the initial conditions were chaotic and unordered,
but the
> laws were simple. You propose that universes with chaotic laws
are more
> likely. The most likely of these would be chaotic laws with
chaotic initial
> conditions,
Most of Platonia is structured in such a way that there isn't
even a distinction between initial conditions and laws.
How long could an observe exist in such a universe, if at all?
>but I think we agree life and observers are not likely to arise
> in this case,
I keep pointing out that "it coudn't evolve, so it doesn't exist"
doesn't apply to Platonia. Everything non contradictory exists there.
Being contradictory is the only barrier to Platonic existence.
Perhaps you did not read my message in detail. I acknowledged there
are non-evolved observers in Platonia, however, they require extremely
ordered initial conditions, and, the laws of such universes must be
non-chaotic enough that they aren't immediately destroyed thereafter.
You seem to imagine these universes as operating with causal laws. It
doesn't matter if observers are destroyed immediately since they can
reappear out of chaos later - if the universe even has a time order so
that "immediately" and "later" are defined. It has nothing to do with
initial conditions. Initial conditions are only significant when later
conditions depend on them through causal laws.
Brent
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