On 2/18/2011 7:06 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 6:15 AM, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com <mailto:peterdjo...@yahoo.com>> wrote:

    On Feb 18, 5:30 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com
    <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
    > Peter,
    > Correct me if I am wrong but I think we have established some
    things we
    > agree on:
    > Consciousness is informational

    > There are more ways to have disorder than order


    > Bayesian reasoning is a good approach in matters of truth
    > The universe could be a second old, and we would have no way of

    Sort of.

    > White rabbits are not commonly seen


    > This universe appears to follow laws having a short description


    > Evolution requires non-chaotic universes
    > Where I think we disagree is on assumptions related to measure, of a
    > universe's initial conditions vs. a universe's laws.  I agree
    there are very
    > many possibilities for what my next moment of experience might
    bring, yet of
    > all the strange things I could observe, the universe doesn't
    often surprise,
    > laws seem to be obeyed.  It is as if there is some equation
    balancing two
    > extremes, and we see the result of who wins: universes with
    simple laws (few
    > possibilities) but random initial conditions (many
    possibilities) vs.
    > universes with complex or random laws (many possibilities) but
    with ordered
    > initial conditions (few possibilities).
    > Universes which are ruled by chaotic or unpredictable laws with
    > rabbits present probably also prevent life from evolving.
     However as you
    > mentioned, observers may be part of the initial conditions for
    such a
    > universe.

    "initial conditions" only come into where you have a temporal
    structure, and that only applies to some corners of Platonia

Perhaps consciousness is only possible in universes with a temporal structure over which the computation within the observer's mind is feasible.

    >  There are many possibilities for the laws, but few possibilities
    > for the initial conditions.
    > Our universe does not seem to be that way, however, owing to the
    lack of
    > white rabbits.  Our universe's laws seem simple, and life had to
    evolve from
    > initial conditions for which there could have been many
    > The question should then be, which side of the equation wins out
    most often?
    >  Every possible universe has its laws and initial conditions,
    for which
    > there are many possibilities.  The two must be considered
    together.  For
    > this universe the initial conditions were chaotic and unordered,
    but the
    > laws were simple.  You propose that universes with chaotic laws
    are more
    > likely.  The most likely of these would be chaotic laws with
    chaotic initial
    > conditions,

    Most of Platonia is structured in such a way that there isn't
    even a distinction between initial conditions  and laws.

How long could an observe exist in such a universe, if at all?

    >but I think we agree life and observers are not likely to arise
    > in this case,

    I keep pointing out that  "it coudn't evolve, so it doesn't exist"
    doesn't apply to Platonia. Everything non contradictory exists there.
    Being contradictory is the only barrier to Platonic existence.

Perhaps you did not read my message in detail. I acknowledged there are non-evolved observers in Platonia, however, they require extremely ordered initial conditions, and, the laws of such universes must be non-chaotic enough that they aren't immediately destroyed thereafter.

You seem to imagine these universes as operating with causal laws. It doesn't matter if observers are destroyed immediately since they can reappear out of chaos later - if the universe even has a time order so that "immediately" and "later" are defined. It has nothing to do with initial conditions. Initial conditions are only significant when later conditions depend on them through causal laws.


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