On 05 Jul 2011, at 00:56, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:

Rex.... have you studied Spinoza's notion that freedom is the
recognition of necessity? If you haven't read Spinoza I would
recommend him on this free will/determinism issue.

That is a good point. I did forget Spinoza saw it.

Bruno




On Jun 9, 8:00 am, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 5:58 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jun 2011, at 07:14, Rex Allen wrote:

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 07 Jun 2011, at 00:52, Rex Allen wrote:

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
wrote:

It is not that hard to get, so would be worth your
while trying to understand.

I think I understand this already.  The whole teleporting
moscow-washington thing, right?

In Platonia, there are many computational paths that branch out from
the current state that represents "me".

Each of these paths looks like a "possible future" from my subjective
standpoint.

But, they're not possible, they're actual.  In Platonia, they all
exist. And they do so timelessly...so they're not "futures" they're a
series of "nows".

So, subjectively, I have the "illusion" of an undetermined "future".

But...really, it's determined.  Every one of those paths is
objectively actualized.

So how does this prove what I said false? All those static "futures" are mine. They're all determined. I'm still on rails...it's just
that the rails split in a rather unintuitive way.

Even if we say that what constitutes "me" is a single unbranched
path...this still doesn't make what I said false. I'm one of those paths, I just don't know which. But ignorance of the future is not indeterminism. Ignorance of the future is ignorance of the (fully
determined)
future.

This is an argument against any determinist theory, or any block- universe theory. It is an argument again compatibilist theory of free will, and an argument against science in general, not just the mechanist hypothesis.

Hard determinism is incompatible with science in general?

? On the contrary. It was your argument against determinism which I took as
incompatible with science or scientific attitude.

I'm not arguing against determinism.  I'm fine with determinism and
it's consequences.

But third person determinism does not entails first person
determinism, nor do determinism in general prevents genuine free will.

Determinism doesn't prevent your "redefined" version of "free will",
which of course isn't free will at all - but rather a psychological
coping mechanism disguised as a reasonable position.

BUT...I didn't say third person determinism.  I said "hard
determinism"...the alternative to the soft determinism of
compatibilism.

People believing that determinism per se
makes free will impossible confuse themselves with God.

No, people who believe that determinism is incompatible with free will
have a firm understanding of the meaning of both determinism and free
will.

But now I am no more sure what you are saying. Are you OK with hard
determinism? Are you OK with block-multiverse, or block-mindscape?

I'm fine with "hard determinism".  I am a "hard determinist"...which
is the position that determinism is incompatible with free will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_determinism

I'm also fine with block-multiverse.  And with a block-mindscape.

Neither of which allow for free will. Since both of which are static, unchanging, and unchangeable - making it impossible that anyone "could
have done otherwise" than they actually did.  No one can be free of
that fact - and therefore no one has free will.

Rex

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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