On 21 Jul 2011, at 13:02, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On 7/20/2011 2:59 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
What does consciousness require?

Interaction with the world.

But what is a world? Also, assuming computationalism, you need only to
believe that you interact with a "world/reality", whatever that is,
like in dream. If not you *do* introduce some magic in both
consciousness and world.

Information processing.  Memory.  A point of view; i.e. model of the
world including self.  Purpose/values.

OK. Although "conscious purpose" is already a high form of
consciousness, it might be self-consciousness.

Consciousness is nothing more than the elaborated experience of
feeling.

OK.




The world it interacts with does not have to make any
objective sense, requires no information processing or memory, purpose
or value.

OK.


Pain is consciousness.

OK.


It need not contain any information
beyond a projection of the possibility of it's cessation.

OK.



It is a self-
explanatory, innate, first person experience

OK.



that doesn't need any
complex logic behind it,

Why? This is just like saying "we can't explain it". I am OK with that, but then I look for better definitions and assumptions, with the goal of at least finding an explanation of why it seems like that, or why there is no explanation. Without this, it is like invoking the will of God, and adding "don't search for an explanation".



nor will any amount of logic necessarily
alleviate it directly.

I agree. Most people will say that logic will just add a layer of headache :) Still, we need logic, and *some* theory to explain why we cannot explain directly the first person sensations.



You can't always reason with pain.

Right. It is not a reason type of thing. But there might be a (meta) reason for that.


Pain cannot
be simulated quantitatively in any way.

How do you know?



There is no equation, game, or
purely inorganic quantitative system that has ever felt pain or will
ever feel what we know as pain.

You remind me of the Spanish christians arguing that south american indians have no souls. You can rape and enslave them at will: it is not a sin! (To be sure they *did* eventually conclude, at the Valladolid meeting, that they have a soul, so that it was necessary to convert them to save them from hell). (That's why the "spirit" of the Salvia divinorum plant became known as the Virgin Mary!)



Without first hand experience of the
difference between pain and pleasure, there can be no animal level of
consciousness.

I am OK with this. But I do think plausible that you can emulate digitally first hand experiences of pain and pleasure. Then 'real' human-like pain, which can last for a time, will need the whole (arithmetical) truth to be stable on its many 'futures'. Our first person experiences are non computably distributed on an infinite structure, but that is a consequence of its digitalness at some level.

Bruno


On Jul 21, 5:55 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 21 Jul 2011, at 00:14, meekerdb wrote:

On 7/20/2011 2:59 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
What does consciousness require?

Interaction with the world.

But what is a world? Also, assuming computationalism, you need only to
believe that you interact with a "world/reality", whatever that is,
like in dream. If not you *do* introduce some magic in both
consciousness and world.

Information processing.  Memory.  A point of view; i.e. model of the
world including self.  Purpose/values.

OK. Although "conscious purpose" is already a high form of
consciousness, it might be self-consciousness.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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