On 26 Sep 2011, at 21:44, meekerdb wrote:

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On 9/26/2011 9:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:Suppose that you are currently in state S (which exist by the compassumption).But what does "you" refer to?

`Your first person view. Or the owner of your first person view,`

`restricted to that view, without salvia amnesia, if you want.`

The comp assumption seems ambiguous. Is it the assumption that"you" are instantiated by a specific computation?

`No. Something like that can be part of the consequence, but this is`

`clearly not assumed. In fact the UD shows that "you" is instantiated`

`by an infinity of computations.`

Or is it the assumption that your brain could be replaced, withoutyou noticing, by a physically different computer, so long as itcomputed the same function (at some level).

Yes.

These seem slightly different to me and are only identical if QM isfalse and the world is strictly classical and deterministic. At apractical level the brain is certainly mostly classical and so Imight say 'yes' to the doctor even though my artificial brain willhave slightly different behavoir because it has differentcounterfactual quantum behavior. But this difference seems topresent a problem when trying to identify "you" within the inifinitebundle of computations instantiating a particular state in the UDcomputations.

`Why? If my "original brain" is described by QM (without collapse) it`

`might be said to self-multiply naturally. But that self-multiplication`

`will be contagious on the UD in that universe, so this will not change`

`the relative proportion. On the contrary, the UD itself forces a`

`multiplication to be lived from inside.`

`As to identify yourself in the UD*, this is just impossible in any`

`third person ways. But the indeterminacy is on the first person`

`experiences, not on their description in the UD. So the statistics are`

`lived from inside. A computation is winning, if indeed you feel to be`

`alive through its UD instantiation.`

Ambiguities remain, but they are part of the measure problem.

Of course if you replace the whole universe with an emulation,instead of just my brain, then my emulated brain in the emulateduniverse can have the same behavior as my natural brain in thisuniverse.

`Yes, and that is why the reasoning will work in the limiting case`

`where your "generalized brain" is the entire universe described at`

`some level. The UD will generate all the digital approximation of that`

`universe, and at some level of approximation, you will not see the`

`difference, because we are assuming comp.`

The UD generates an infinity of computations going through thatstate. All what I say is that your future is determined by allthose computations, and your self-referential abilities. If fromthis you can prove that your future is more random than the oneobserved, then you are beginning to refute rigorously comp. But themath part shows that this is not easy to do. In fact the randominputs confer stability for the programs which exploits thatrandomness, and again, this is the case for some formulation (à-laFeynman) of QM.How is this?

`Consider the iterated self-duplication experience, like with the`

`random movie, where you expect to see (correctly) a random movie. The`

`movie will seem random because the limiting case is described by a`

`Gaussian (accepting the p = 1/2 for a single duplication). Other`

`considerations make such a randomness occurring below you substitution`

`level, so it might be that the only way to stabilize the computations`

`above the substitution level comes from some phase randomization,`

`similar to Feynman explanation of why QM minimize the path action. We`

`need a notion of negative (amplitude) of probability, extracted from`

`comp, for such a procedure to work, but this is already provided by`

`the logic of self-reference when we add the non-cul-de-sac assumption`

`(Dt) to the provability modality (Bp), with p sigma_1. This can be`

`made enough precise to make sense of how the quantum can be explained`

`by the digital viewed from the digital creature themselves. No doubt`

`that a lot of work remain to be done, but that is exactly what I`

`wanted to show.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.